How to bring the fight back to 6th?

[rle68]

Please tone down the aggression in your reply. There is absolutely no need for it in a simple debate about the relative merits and demerits of the Assault Phase of a wargame. I would also recommend that you improve your own reading comprehension skills before getting involved with a debate; I certainly agree with you that a 10-man Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter squad will muller a Mob of 30 Ork boys, perhaps being a relatively equal fight if they were 'Ard boys and had a 4+ save. However, a small Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter pack will still pose a significant threat to a mob of 30 boys, even discounting a few turns of shooting as the Orks close and Overwatch, which doesn't really reflect the nature of the game. It is a classic example of Games Workshop's approach to fixing rules issues; overcompensate the original issue, in this case assault being rather more effective than shooting, and effectively nullify certain types of army build.

Now, to the OP's point, what needs to be done? I play Orks myself, and regularly play against Tyranids. My initial response would be that most games of 40k do not use enough cover to keep the game balanced. There are far too many reasons to list here, but I feel GW is to blame. Ironically it is because they have produced too many nice terrain kits.

Back when I started playing 40k, there were loads of articles in White Dwarf, rulebooks and even codices giving you advice on how to build terrain; from simple hills and cardboard buildings to vast, army specific building complexes. I even still have a couple of the books GW published on the subject. Stores always had loads of tables with plenty of hand made scenery, giving great examples of what could be done cheaply and, better still, the people who had made it were right there in store, so could help you make your own. Now, GW's policy is to only use their own kits in store (which I guess I understand, to a point) and most hobbyists cannot afford to kit out whole tables like that. The staff are actively discouraged from advising people how to build their own terrain and often don't actually have the knowledge themselves, much less of local suppliers from whom you could purchase the necessary equipment and materials. Add to that the budgets for terrain being slashed and the staffers' time being filled with additional training and harsher sales targets and they have no real way to supplement the store's terrain.

White Dwarf and the rulebooks have also slowly reduce the amount of scenery in battle shots. It certainly makes it easier to photograph the models in the games or set-ups, but further compounds the belief that a lower amount of terrain is required. This has lead to a whole generation of gamers playing on very sparse battlefields. Combining this with the buffs from 6th Ed to shooting has made assault oriented armies extremely difficult to play in most cases. Throw some more LoS blocking terrain and a few more cover saves on the table, and the issue helps solve itself for very balanced games.

One final point, more to rle68 than anyone else. If you want your point to come across, please improve your spelling and use of punctuation. I fully realise that the internet is not a place where correct grammar is required 100% of the time, but a little attention will make your argument more clearly understood, harder to misinterpret and less likely to receive backlash from further posters.

"""""""""And actually, doing the numbers, if 30 Ork Boyz hit a 10-strong Grey Hunter unit of roughly equivalent points - i.e. mark of the wulfen and a power sword - then with Counter Attack, the Grey Hunters would put out around thirty to thirty five attacks (Mark of the Wulfen), of which half would hit - so we will say 16 """"""""""""

here is the problem with people who do magical number crunches they dont know the details here..all space wolf players, correction any good space wolf player isnt going to let them be charged by a 30 man mob, but i digress... you factor in things like wolf tail talismans (which isnt part of a normal makeup yes) that let you hit on 3's and the numbers change... you mentioned power weapons, no one takes power weapons they take frost blades if possible depends on whether there is a wolfguard attached which usually there is which make it easier to wound in fact killing more of them outright.. again the numbers change dramatically

the basis of this entire point ws a comment made that is was "bollocks" for space marines to kill a huge ork mob ..my response was to him a point that from a known fact i can say that comment is wrong...

in 5th i pulled off a perfectly executed multi assault with 15 grey hunters and Ragnar and wiped out over 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn... can it happen now... not sure dont think the multi assault transfer wounds and losses like it did

[Learn2Eel]

I'm not stupid and I know to factor in shooting, but the example specifically quoted was thirty Ork boyz getting into combat with a squad of Space Marines. Few things in the game will stand up to that many attacks, which is probably the point; assault isn't dead, as it can still thrash armies that don't deal with it at range. The real problem is getting into assault.

[rle68]

i didnt say you were stupid.. i simply said number crunches are not the best indicators...

[Charistoph]

Terrain -

2 things. First is you and opponent are in control of Terrain. You can make it a fight on a desert mesa or the nastiest city fight.

The second applies to these as well:

Scoring Units -
Sweeping Advance -

These are the same as they were in 5th. Aside from Fortifications and the optional Mysterious Terrain/Objectives, Terrain falls here, too. So rather pointless other than nostalgia.

Overwatch - It hurts lightly armored assault units, and frequently one of the balancing factors for assault-heavy units has been lighter armor.

Yeah, Overwatch hurts a little (aside from Template happy units like Flamers and Burna Boys), but well balanced by being as accurate as a cross-eyed Ork. Your suggestion about giving it a minimum distance does have merit, though I would probably hold it to a set distance like 6", but that's just me.

Transports - Except for Land Raiders and Stormravens, the transports that you can assault out of are so fragile that they may be more of a death trap than staying on foot, depending on the aforementioned terrain.

Transports are not death traps (see 4th for that), but they aren't mobile bunkers, either like in 5th. Hull Points were a good idea, in my opinion, though poorly implemented. Glancing is a poor word for something that shakes your vehicle apart but does nothing else.

My preference would be to make a Glance roll on the table, but not necessarily lose a Hull Point. Glances wouldn't kill a vehicle outright, but may cause it to lose Hull Points. Pens always kill a Hull Point, and change the 'May' to the 'Explodes' result.

Glances then can still kill a vehicle, but a bit harder to do, while Penetrations become more likely to wreck the vehicle.

[Learn2Eel]

i didnt say you were stupid.. i simply said number crunches are not the best indicators...

I know. But when it all comes down to it, doing math averages now helps one out in game when knowing those averages can actually sway a tactical decision. I.e. would I feel safe with just a brood of Termagants charging in, confident that they will survive only one round so that I can shoot and charge that unit again on my next turn? If I have six engaged with ten Tactical Marines, they should statistically survive and stay put while in Synapse range. Dice rolls sway everything but it does help.

[magickbk]

These are the same as they were in 5th. Aside from Fortifications and the optional Mysterious Terrain/Objectives, Terrain falls here, too. So rather pointless other than nostalgia.

I've been around a long time, so I have a way of looking at changes not just in terms of edition-to-edition, but also how it compares to all previous editions. The designers currently seem to have a sense of nostalgia, as they are bringing back old rules and elements to flavor the current game. The FOC apart from Allies and Fortifications has not changed since 3rd edition, yet objectives, scoring units, missions, and many other rules have changed. Looking at these changes long-term isn't nostalgia however, as that implies that I am overly sentimental for that era. It is simply the prior history and evolution of the rules regardless of the fact that it is older than the previous edition. It is valid to look at changes to one game element against all prior editions since that one element was added.

Transports are not death traps (see 4th for that), but they aren't mobile bunkers, either like in 5th.

I was specifically referring to vehicles which can be assaulted out of excluding the ones mentioned, which leaves Ork Trukks, Raiders, and the like, which although not as dangerous as 4th, are still not very good protection for the units in question.

[Mr Mystery]

number 1 before you go jump on my case.. remember i responded to his smarmy comments i didnt initiate the comment.. so if that offends you ? too bad

and lastly this isnt comp 101 and if a mistyped word comes through when on my phone well thats just how it is...

"""""""""And actually, doing the numbers, if 30 Ork Boyz hit a 10-strong Grey Hunter unit of roughly equivalent points - i.e. mark of the wulfen and a power sword - then with Counter Attack, the Grey Hunters would put out around thirty to thirty five attacks (Mark of the Wulfen), of which half would hit - so we will say 16 """"""""""""

here is the problem with people who do magical number crunches they dont know the details here..all space wolf players, correction any good space wolf player isnt going to let them be charged by a 30 man mob, but i digress... you factor in things like wolf tail talismans (which isnt part of a normal makeup yes) that let you hit on 3's and the numbers change... you mentioned power weapons, no one takes power weapons they take frost blades if possible depends on whether there is a wolfguard attached which usually there is which make it easier to wound in fact killing more of them outright.. again the numbers change dramatically

the basis of this entire point ws a comment made that is was "bollocks" for space marines to kill a huge ork mob ..my response was to him a point that from a known fact i can say that comment is wrong...

in 5th i pulled off a perfectly executed multi assault with 15 grey hunters and Ragnar and wiped out over 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn... can it happen now... not sure dont think the multi assault transfer wounds and losses like it did

And again you miss salient point.

OP quoted it as 'small units of Marines and massive units.

Whereas you presented a powerful, maxed out unit as a shonky rebuttal, and chucked in some (inaccurate) slurs against my character.

Given the unit you posted (as continue to increase the points cost thereof) is kind of expected to job a horde. That's why take them yes?

Let's do a points crunch shall we, just for sake of additional comparison....

30 Ork Slugga Boyz with a big hard Nob (fnarr)....210 all in, including a Power Klaw and a Bosspole. And let's also give them Frag Stikk Bomms, because there is no sense in not taking them. Total of 240.

10 Grey Hunters, as are? 150. And the Boyz will kick their pointy canines down their throat in HTH...

10 Wolf Guard - 180. Given the higher number of attacks? Looking a bit dicier for the Boyz, but still far from insurmountable yes?

But, to be a small unit? Comprising 5-6 models in each Marine unit? Someone's going home in an ambulance, and its not the Orks!

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing!

[chicop76]

For many years, I've played with primarily shooting armies (Dark Angels, Tau, Imperial Guard), and I am now trying to build an assault-oriented army for variety and challenge. These are the issues I've seen:

Terrain - As has been mentioned, a lack of sufficient terrain is a huge issue, but even more so are the changes to LOS in regards to terrain. Many pieces that used to block sight no longer do, or are now to short to be effective given larger and taller models. While my main opponent is away on vacation, I am replacing a few pieces from my table that have served well for many editions, but no longer work the way they were intended.

Scoring Units - A huge flaw is that many armies have to choose assault units from their Troops choices, which means those units will not be likely to be going for objectives, since there are frequently other units better able to hold them. This need both reduces the number of assault units in the army due to needing some units to take objectives, and also makes it more difficult for those armies to take objectives, as they have fewer units to do it. These armies become a gamble between taking 1-2 objectives and trying to deny the rest.

Overwatch - It hurts lightly armored assault units, and frequently one of the balancing factors for assault-heavy units has been lighter armor.

Sweeping Advance - Back in the day, sweeping advances made it near impossible to keep an assault unit out of combat long enough to destroy it. It was too powerful, so it was removed, but now it becomes difficult to keep an assault unit in combat during enough of the game to make it effective.

Transports - Except for Land Raiders and Stormravens, the transports that you can assault out of are so fragile that they may be more of a death trap than staying on foot, depending on the aforementioned terrain.

How would I fix all this? There is no easy, one-stop fix. I think for the next edition, I would modify Overwatch so that you can't fire if the assaulting unit is within half the distance rolled on the charge dice, and I would allow consolidation after destroying an enemy to initiate combat with a new unit, with the assaulting unit not gaining any charge bonuses and the
defending unit not firing overwatch, which was allowed back in 3rd edition.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I played back at the start of 3rd and constanly rotate my armies. I can say I can be playing Tau, Nids, or Daemons for the most part. One shooty army and two assault armies. I do really well with Edaemons and my nids can be down right over bearing. Tau and Daemons I have to at least think on tactics, while my 9 year old kid when tought how to run my nids can easily win games.

1. Terrain: it is a problem. The more there is the better possible chance that an assault army can win. How ever I start designing my armies with no terrain in mind. With this thought process you will do well.

Let's take nids for example. You have acess to biomancy and telepathy galore. With telepathy you have invisibility that provides +4 cover saves in the open, also with biomancy you can have +5 feel no pain and a chance to get wounds back on a +5 roll at the end of turn. I typically have my two trygons and my swarmlord/ hive tyrant with guard in front of my army and with all the psychic rolls they tend to have endurance on all 3 units. Next I have my whole army behind them with a few invisibility rolls. Either I have on the most part a +5 cover save or a key unit like a tervigon with a +2 cover save. My primes can out pace my army thanks to fleet which allows them to re roll on run.

My 3 tervigons stay back with cover saves and spawn more guys who gets cover saves due to the big guy screen. The only thing that really hurt the gaunts is focus fire. I tried to fit venomthorpes in, but they really don't work.

Wayyy in the back I have my biovores blasting strength 4 large pie plates at the enemy.

Also I run a doom with biomancy(chance for iron arm) to deep strike in and cause disruption.

The pacing of my army usually allows for turn 3 assaulting. The endurance is really helpful to keep my stuff alive long enough for my army to get across the field.

I also out flank with a tervigon and it's been working really well. It can't spawn the turn it comes in, but helps me to claim objectives from an unexpected vantage point.

I am still torn between switching back and forth between hive guard and zonathorpes. The zonathorpes can easily double as a master 1 psyker with 2 more powers rather easily. Also puppet master is rather nice. It allows me to like say melta the other sides tank.

Anyway I use my MC's as terrain. If it is a big issue take a fortess of redeption and drop it in the middle as a fortification.

2. Scoring unit isn't an issue with nids. Nids can have possibly put out 5 scoring units a turn on top of having possibly 9 on the board due to 2/3s of the missions. Anyway nids usually do not get fast attack and tend to max out on troops and sometimes heavy support. It's really an non issue.

Daemons is an issue. However I never lost with them simply do to the fact I tend to wipe you out around turn 3 and 4. I get a portalglypgh to make an attempt to claim an objective if I do not get riftbringer. Riftbringer on a bloodthirster is typically game over.

Orcs I still don't see them having problems due to the differant units they have. Good luck getting rid of all the scoring units.

3. Overwatch is easily dealth with Nids. If I have 2 gaunts in one sqaud and 15 gaunts in another I assault with the 2 gaunts spending your over watch or tying up the over watch unit. Than I assault with my 15 gaunts wth no fear of over watch. I advance slowly with my nids so I can have multiple assaults going on. It makes over watch an non issue.

With daemons I have enough buffs to deal with over watch. Invisibilty shuts down overwatch completely and hounds tie up units for my princes , greaer daemons, or daemonettes to eat. I don't really fear overwatch on the hounds thanks to a +3 invulnerable save and +5 feel no pain, or invisibilty on them.

Overwatch is nice, but unless you are tau it's not major assault deterent.

4. Transports: what assault armies have this. What is a transport I say. The way you can only cover 24" with a transport makes it hard to rely on. Also I blast tranports whenever I see them. Unless Orcs are in 14 armour open topped trans ports I really don't see the point.

However Tau and Eldar, Guard and shooting armies transports are great. However even dark eldar have issues assaulting out of their transports. The make better gun platforms than assault platforms in my opinion.

Honestly I don't see anything needing fixing. Why you think you see assault rifles with no knives on them in modern combat. Look at the last samaraui and end the end it will show you how effective assault is in modern warfare.

Anyway assault was over the top in 3rd. When ever a 200 point unit of genestealers can destroy 1.5k of marines with landraider, rhinos, and the trimmings by themselves while the rest of the nid army just sit and watch I think it was a bit too much. Every edition has toned down assualting and raised shooting

However assault is not dead. You just have to think and not just bindly rush in and die. May it be from support shooting or psychic powers your assault units need support to get the job done.

Well 10 termagaunts with preferred enemy, poison, and furious charge can put some hurt dem marines. On the charge they can kill 3-4 marines, and if they have invisibility on them they can kill 4-5 marines on the charge. Heck 6 marines killing invisible gaunts is fun since 2 marines actually hit and if they have endurance they may kill 2 gaunts, but they will get 1 for sure, even betterif the marines are enfeebled which means 1 marine can actually get a wound through.

Since nids typically run at least 5 psykers with 15 rolls, it's not hard to see all those effects go off. Another reason I am leaning towards zonathorpes for more psychic buffs.

[rle68]

And again you miss salient point.

OP quoted it as 'small units of Marines and massive units.

Whereas you presented a powerful, maxed out unit as a shonky rebuttal, and chucked in some (inaccurate) slurs against my character.

Given the unit you posted (as continue to increase the points cost thereof) is kind of expected to job a horde. That's why take them yes?

Let's do a points crunch shall we, just for sake of additional comparison....

30 Ork Slugga Boyz with a big hard Nob (fnarr)....210 all in, including a Power Klaw and a Bosspole. And let's also give them Frag Stikk Bomms, because there is no sense in not taking them. Total of 240.

10 Grey Hunters, as are? 150. And the Boyz will kick their pointy canines down their throat in HTH...

10 Wolf Guard - 180. Given the higher number of attacks? Looking a bit dicier for the Boyz, but still far from insurmountable yes?

But, to be a small unit? Comprising 5-6 models in each Marine unit? Someone's going home in an ambulance, and its not the Orks!

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing!

number one no one made any slurs against your character you did that sir all on your own.. you responded back with names

powerful maxed out unit 10 grey hunters is powerful?

210 points you say and youll kick the canines out of their heads? keep dreaming.. ok just off top of my head

5 grey hunters 75 points
wolf guard with frost blade 28 points.. thats 103 oh lets see what else can i do to make it fair??? hmmm
how about i add a wolf guard battle leader with another frost blade for 95

your 210 vs my 198 ill take those odds any day of the week and ill have tons of dead green skins sitting beneath my power armored feet

7 models vs 30 and youll lose i love how people with mobs of 20 or more whine about marines in small numbers when you ALL max out your units to give 60 attacks or more

hell while we are at it why dont you add in a huge ork war boss maxed out on whatever you want ill add Ragnar and show you why you should have stayed home...

[DrLove42]

Math hammer. 7 space marines. 14 attacks. 7 hits. 4 wounds. 4 dead Orks.

30 orks. 60 attacks. 30 hit. 15 wound. 5 dead marines.

Second round of combat. 2 marines. 4 attacks. 2 hit. 1 dead Ork.
26 Orks. 54 attacks. 27 hits. 14 wounds. 4 wounds on Wolves. All wolves dead.