Space Marines Rumor Roundup

[Mr Mystery]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but I'd just like to point out even at this stage, there was still entirely made up stuff about Tau and Eldar doing the rounds!

Always remember your pinch of salt, until you have the book in your hands.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but I'd just like to point out even at this stage, there was still entirely made up stuff about Tau and Eldar doing the rounds!

Always remember your pinch of salt, until you have the book in your hands.

thing is, as important as the codex is, rules mean nothing really, we cant influence them in any great way (whining to dev team via whineseer and pestering emails only goes so far in FAQs), and once they land people usually stop whining within a week as they figure out how the book works.

lets just hope its not £35 for 5 stern guard or £30 for the tact box.........

[Power Klawz]

I personally think the Ultra's chapter tactics sound like waaay too much, the tactical option at least anyway. Army wide preferred enemy and your main troops being twin-linked. Marines would have unrivaled accuracy, it would be insane. Also doesn't it invalidate the Imperial Fist Bolter Drill as that give their Bolters re-roll of 1's to hit. Basically being an inferior version to the the Ultra's buff. I'm taking lots of salt with these rumours. I'd say sprinkles of truth in there, but personally i don't trust it all. Oh an Tigurius sounds like a whole lot of wishlisting to me.

But... I thought that the Ultramarines were all Space Marines' spiritual liege?

Most of these rumors seem pretty legit at this late stage though. I think the Ultramarines' "3 flavors of awesome" are probably mostly, if not entirely, accurate. The tradeoff being that you have to go all the way with a list to get the most out of it while the other chapters still get their bonuses without having to over-specialize. If all your tac squads are twin linked, why take anything but tac-squads and stuff that your tac-squads can't readily dispatch? (ie: dedicated anti armor and air and... that's basically it. Bolters and sporadic special/heavy weapons will eventually kill everything else quite reliably, especially when they're twin linked.)

I don't assume that the developers were overly concerned with "balance" between chapter perks though. There are going to be some obvious winners (Ultrabros) and losers (LOL templars.)

Although a sort of win/loss outcome of this is that if you're not totally satisfied with what you got out of the Main book... there's always a supplement to look forward to!

Also someone tried to make an analogy between fruits and space marines earlier in this thread and I just wanted to state that Vanilla Marines to CSM are not apples to oranges, they are apples to caramel apples sprinkled with MOARGRIMDARK.

[DrBored]

But... I thought that the Ultramarines were all Space Marines' spiritual liege?

Most of these rumors seem pretty legit at this late stage though. I think the Ultramarines' "3 flavors of awesome" are probably mostly, if not entirely, accurate. The tradeoff being that you have to go all the way with a list to get the most out of it while the other chapters still get their bonuses without having to over-specialize. If all your tac squads are twin linked, why take anything but tac-squads and stuff that your tac-squads can't readily dispatch? (ie: dedicated anti armor and air and... that's basically it. Bolters and sporadic special/heavy weapons will eventually kill everything else quite reliably, especially when they're twin linked.)

I don't assume that the developers were overly concerned with "balance" between chapter perks though. There are going to be some obvious winners (Ultrabros) and losers (LOL templars.)

Although a sort of win/loss outcome of this is that if you're not totally satisfied with what you got out of the Main book... there's always a supplement to look forward to!

Also someone tried to make an analogy between fruits and space marines earlier in this thread and I just wanted to state that Vanilla Marines to CSM are not apples to oranges, they are apples to caramel apples sprinkled with MOARGRIMDARK.

I'm just surprised Ultramarines get so many HQ's when they're rumored to be getting a Supplement where those extra HQ's would be able to fit a lot better.. Oh well!

Also we don't yet know the full picture. It could be that only bolters are twin-linked on tacticals, and perhaps only if you keep them in full squads of 10, and then perhaps only if you equip your Sarge with a power fist for no good reason, or maybe they have to be in range of a banner, or joined by an IC.

It may seem with this huge rumordump like we have everything, rules, point costs, USR's, but we're missing large chunks that we probably won't get till Sept. when we have the whole Codex.

[Patrick Boyle]

Most of these rumors seem pretty legit at this late stage though. I think the Ultramarines' "3 flavors of awesome" are probably mostly, if not entirely, accurate. The tradeoff being that you have to go all the way with a list to get the most out of it while the other chapters still get their bonuses without having to over-specialize.

Huh? The Ultramarine tactical one, the entire army, with any weapon rerolls on ones, tacticals reroll all misses. You have two troop options as C:SM, tacticals and scouts. So the fact that you 'have to load up on tacs to take advantage' is moot, you're probably going to have 2-3 tactical squads anyway, and anyone who isn't a tac marine(outside scouts and techmarine servitors) only misses on a 2. There's no specialization involved, everyone benefits.

As opposed to say IF, where only boltguns(and storm bolters and heavy bolters by the sound of it) get to reroll their 1s, and you have to take Devastators and Centurions to benefit from the tank hunters. Or Ravenguard, where it's all about the jump packs. Or White Scars where it's all down to bikes. That stuff is specialized.

[Jared van Kell]

it's not that surprising they got cheap, but it couldn't have hurt for Chaos marines to be 12-13 base.

Last time I checked (About a minute ago) Chaos Spacemarines were 13pt points base.

JvK

[Power Klawz]

Huh? The Ultramarine tactical one, the entire army, with any weapon rerolls on ones, tacticals reroll all misses. You have two troop options as C:SM, tacticals and scouts. So the fact that you 'have to load up on tacs to take advantage' is moot, you're probably going to have 2-3 tactical squads anyway, and anyone who isn't a tac marine(outside scouts and techmarine servitors) only misses on a 2. There's no specialization involved, everyone benefits.

As opposed to say IF, where only boltguns(and storm bolters and heavy bolters by the sound of it) get to reroll their 1s, and you have to take Devastators and Centurions to benefit from the tank hunters. Or Ravenguard, where it's all about the jump packs. Or White Scars where it's all down to bikes. That stuff is specialized.

Well the supposed tactical perk for Ultramarines is comparable to the Imperial Fists. For non-tactical boltguns its identical, for non-boltguns in non-tactical squads its superior, and for tactical squads it is superior. This still needs some clarification and finality though, do the imperial fists get to reroll 1's on ALL bolter type weapons, including stormbolters, heavy bolters and the soon to be far more prevalent hurricane bolters (from centurions)? Then you have to take into account that they get tank hunters as well. With the widespread usage of fortifications the bonus damage to buildings is non negligible as well I feel. What you're probably left with is an Imperial Fists list that will perform almost as well with bolters and better with long ranged, anti-armor. So I feel that's a bit more flexibility than a straightforward reroll 1's to hit with shooting (and I assume its for shooting only with the Ultramarines.)

Looking at the assault perks for UM its similar to Raven Guard, although it does benefit more than just jump units it really benefits them the most, and the Raven Guard will still win out. Ultramarine assault squads can jump 12 inches in the movement phase and reroll charge distance due to fleet, but they still won't get impact hits. Raven Guard will move just as fast and still get impact hits, as well as having the rather situational (for space marines) stealth USR. Obviously only helpful when it can push the cover save into 2+ territory or when facing AP3+ weapons that don't ignore cover, but again a little bonus that the ultramarines do not have. Rerolling charge distance on non-assault, non-bike units for Ultramarines is great for terminators and termy-tubbies though, so you may be right on Ultras having more utility when compared to Raven Guard in this respect.

The devastator rules seem strange to me. Obviously a huge buff to overwatch for the entire army and a slight buff to anti-air capability with non-AA weapons, both good things. However, the unit that would have most benefited from rerolling snap shots in my opinion (devastators) instead get relentless, which is potentially a game changing ability for them, but one which really goes against the purpose for which they are most suited and often used, which is loitering in hard cover and blasting long ranged hate into their enemies. Letting them reroll snap fire shots would have been interesting, instead of wasting all those points on flakk missiles and launchers for anti air you could stack them with cheaper options and still have a little anti-air oomph. On the surface I think that yes, turning them into Dark Reapers that drink protein shakes is probably better than letting them reroll missed snap shots, but its an odd thing. I can't really find any analogues in the other chapters similar to this perk so it really stand alone. It does rather beg for spammed devastator squads though.

So I guess I could have been a bit hasty in exclaiming that the Ultramarine chapter perks were relatively restrictive when compared to others, but I do not think it is inaccurate to say that they certainly do invite stacking particular unit types instead of going for a more balanced force. Less of a "well everything else sucks compared to this" and more of a "wow these are so much better than everything else" sort of situation. Glass half empty or half full, I guess its a matter of perspective. Some people will see opportunities where others see restrictions.

The devastator perks seem like the only wholly unique one,

[Mr Mystery]

Hold on.....I'm calling shenanigans on the Ultramarine rumours.....

Granting 'twin linked' to all Bolters and that?

There's a perk for that in Apocalypse if I'm not mistaken?

Just checked my book.....Hail of Fire, strategic asset.

Methinks the rumour monger might have their wires crossed (or is plain talking out of their bottom and know it)......

[lattd]

My reaction to librarian smurf is due to him suddenly being the best Parker in the game for no reason because he's a smurf, he's better than eldrad who's been at it since before the smurf was born. Let alone the fact he is better than fate weaver who is the second best demonic psyker other than his patron god and is made of the warp.

[Mr Mystery]

To be fair, being pokier than Eldrad as a battle psyker isn't exactly unfeasible.

Eldrad is a Seer, and adept at reading the skeins of fate and that. Tigurius however is a brain melter extraordinaire, and not much else, being genetically modified, trained and disciplined to mind-bum all manner of creatures.