Please Explain How Daemons are Balanced?

[ElectricPaladin]

It's the warp storm table.

Ok, before I get into the details, I want to clarify: I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPLAIN. I'm actually hoping that someone who knows the game better than I can explain this to me - in part so I can just learn more stuff and in part so that I can stop getting so damned tilted when I see Daemons across the table from me.

That clarified...

It's the warp storm table.

The fact that Chaos Daemons have the power to reach out and tough my army no matter what I do, regardless of cover, or being in a vehicle, or anything, seems like an insane advantage. There is nothing I can do to prevent my opponent's army from potentially shafting me on every turn. No amount of tactics, or army composition, or anything has the power to offer me any kind of protection or insurance.

As far as I can tell, there is literally nothing else in the game that works this way. So, ok, Grey Knights are really good at close combat in certain situations. So, shoot them! So, the Tau can do a killer gunline. Deal with the overwatch hits and charge them! So the Eldar do whatever it is the Eldar do now (I don't own their new codex yet, due to having fallen off the Eldar wagon right before the new release and not having the budget to buy books until I need them). I'm sure there's something I can do about it.

But Daemons? The warp storm? I just don't get it.

It probably doesn't help that the times I've faced Daemons have been in odd environments - two highly scenario-based Kill Team games - and perhaps that makes the warp storm table seem like more of a threat than it is. And now I'm preparing to go against Daemons in a Cities of Death tournament, in which I might maneuver all game to come to grips with the *******s while their warp storm ignores cover and blows me off the table. Nevertheless, the warp storm table looks on paper like it should be terrifying, and so far that's been my experience of it.

And don't tell me that it can do as much harm as good. I've never seen that happen in actual play.

So, can someone who understands this game better explain to me how this is supposed to work? Am I getting tilted by a couple of bad games, or is this indeed a horribly unbalanced and killy mechanic?

Thanks for helping me to get this.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Orkz have similar methods of madness, with some of their Tech and the explanations of why stuff happens. Look to the Shokk Attack Gun table for reference, The Ork Weirdboy Psyker table has 1/2 good and 1/2 situational powers, etc... But, at the same time (including FW) they have the habit of causing a bit of un-wanted/warranted chaos on the tabletop. Deff-Rolla's, Red Paint Job,

All in all, i think your getting "tilted" by the possible inclinations of that special rule, vs it's actual effect on the game. Yes, there is a chance for something to go ever-so horribly wrong. That's just fluff meeting tabletop rules. It isn't something that is anger inducing, but more of an annoyance, and, "Oh, that's their shtick..."

Fluff wise, a pure demons army, or even a small one, would only appear when the storms gather strength (this would look like some apocalyptic event btw) and are able to be used as gateways into the material universe. (where the "Normal" galaxy is) Now, while being made of the Warp, the Demon forces aren't in control of it. Even their casters, like Tzeentch demons, only are able to manipulate it to a degree of success. The warp is as much a boon as a curse to any and all demons. It's destructive tendencies harbor no intentional bias. Demon forces have adapted to their specific alignment of the warp, and therefore when conditions are correct, they reap some benefit from it. (like the ability to not be wracked with destructive lighting bolts...) But the complete chaos of the matter shows in the shifting tides of the warp's nature. Which is why players must roll on the table, in both fantasy and 40k, to see where the warp is flopping about.

[isotope99]

You probably shouldn't be using the warp storm in kill team games, it is highly unbalanced in that scenario. Similarly in apocalypse it gets a bit stupid. I'd say anything under 1,000 or over 3,000 leave it at home.

I have found in the 10 games I've played at events that it does actually even out over time.

The 3 and 11 results are the worst offenders from a balance perspective in my opinion and should have been 2D6 rolls not 3D6. (If my opponent has a psyker I offer this as a house rule if they want it).

2 and 12 are rare enough to be disregarded and don't do as much damage/benefit as you might think.

4 and 10 (+1/-1 INV) have the biggest effect and can be devastating in the early game.

The other godstrike powers I haven't found to be that bad (in normal games). Sure you might get lucky and finish off a weakened squad cowering on an objective or send a tau unit fleeing off the board but not that often and praying for a good warp storm table when you're behind is part of the fun of playing as daemons.

[Deadlift]

You think daemons to be unbalanced lol, try kill team with 20 pink horrors. Every model counts as it's own unit. So each pink horror shoots 2d6 str 5 shots per turn. That ****s broken.

[Mozzamanx]

The Warpstorm isn't all that. Just think of it as the Daemon equivalent of ATSKNF, Orders, Battle Focus etc. It is our army-wide rule that offers some perks, for free, to distinguish us as an army. Except in our case it tends to be slightly more explosive and direct, but at the cost of being occasionally spiteful.

Fluffwise it has already been explained. Daemons need the Warp to bleed into reality if they have any hope of manifesting long enough and in large enough quantities for a fight. Unfortunately the Warp and reality don't mix very well and so you get them fighting for supremacy, and as the Warp dominates or recedes it will affect the Daemons proportionally.

Gamewise it goes a long way towards the Daemons otherwise-lacking shooting abilities. Daemons have very little ranged capability outside Witchfires and the Soulgrinder, so this is a mechanic to pad out a critical phase.
It also tends to be better for the Daemon player more than the opponent. 2-4 is bad for the Daemon, 10-12 for the opponent, while 5-9 hurts both but will usually do much more to the enemy. Since it provides 'free' ranged attacks that generally favour one side, it also means that your opponent will have to commit to the fight and cannot simply hide from the Daemons. If they attempt to do so, the Warpstorm would eventually kill the enemy before the Daemons and so it works as a catalyst to get armies moving.

As a final point, the Warpstorm does not completely Ignore Cover or transports and there are ways to mitigate the effects. The hard part is that you never know what it is going to do and so you never know if you *need* to be protecting yourself.

The Storm Abates can do significant damage to the entire Daemon army with no real mitigating factors
Punished by the Gods is devastating and stands an extremely good chance of killing a ~300pt monster, only defence is to take cheap Champions to randomise the roll
Warp Ebb is devastating with no mitigating factors, the Grimoire helps out but hardly fixes the issue
Storm of Fire ignores Cover, but deals light damage and will rarely do anything to transported units
Nurgle's Rot ignores Cover and deals stronger damage in smaller amounts. Worse for Marines but completely useless against transports
Dark Prince Thirsts ignores Cover and can potentially kill any unit. This one you do actually just need to suck up, not a lot you can do against it
Khorne's Wrath has the Barrage rule but otherwise allows cover. It is strong enough to bash transports but spacing your units will help a lot
Warp Surge is fantastic and normally the best result on the table. Just have to roll with it unfortunately
Possession swings between broken powerful, and utterly useless depending on your army. Probably the worst offender in terms of winning the game on a single roll. You have my sympathies here
Summoned is actually pretty mediocre for the double-6 roll and certainly is not worth the risk of table-wide instability.

[Denzark]

See, I think the 6th ed Daemons are bollocks. Quite rightly the screamer flamers got dialled back, but T3 Bloodletters and T4 Plague Bearers are rubbish. So I have never seen the Warp Storm table decisive, I think actually the power of the daemon waxes and wanes in quite a fluffy way.

[el_tigre]

I think the short answer is that it is an unbalanced, poorly thought out mechanic that was inserted in a desperate attempt to disguise the fact that GW simply didn't know what to do with daemons. Anything which doesn't take into consideration points values (how can it, not even being a special rule applied specificaly to entries from the daemon list, never mind their opponents?) should be a gimmick at best. To me it honestly feels like one of those experimental rulesets you used to get back in old WD, where it was meant for fun games between friends and not seriousley considered suitable for everyday gaming. I can't help but wonder what terrible rules were playtested then abandoned if this is what they settled on, but have found that the table is best just ignored completely, having too great a chance of wildly affecting the game in either players favour with no real chance of mitigating tactics beyond fateweaver. If I hadn't paid £30 for the book I would have cut the page out and burned it by now.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I've only played about 5 games with my Slaaneshi Deamons since 6th, so I'm not i a good spot to comment.
But it mostly seems a bit meh.
When you hold it up next to Chapter Traits, Orders or TSKNF it's not very good.
Even the Waaagh and Mob Rule mechanics are more usefully impacting on an army overall.
All in all it has surpirisingly little in-game impact compared to a lot of armies "character USRS".

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Balance is a delusion.

[ElectricPaladin]

Balance is a delusion.

I would argue that perfect balance is a delusion, but a certain degree of balance is required to create a base level of playability. I'm not asking for my army to be 100%, no arguments, no flaws, just as good as everything else. I just don't want it to be pasted.

Anyway, from what I'm reading it looks like my Daemon opponent got a bit lucky, our campaign organizer made a mistake by allowing the warp storm table in the Kill Team campaign, and I shouldn't have nearly as much trouble from it in the Cities of Death games.