The argument PRO-Gargantuan Creature Lords of War

[Jrbunn02]

Along the lines of what DarkLink said, for this to have true comparison value, you also need to be listing the benefits of a Gargantuan Creature over a Monstrous Creature, including -

1) Poisoned Weapons only wounding on a 6+
2) Instant Death weapons having a reduced effect
3) Stomp
4) Etc.

I have not listed out all of the pros/cons, but for this to be a valid discussion, all data needs to be presented.

Edit: I do note that you list these things within one of the paragraphs, but not as visibly as the data that supports your side of the original argument.

[Kyban]

GCs get feel no pain as well.

[Shane Hanson]

Yeah I would say like the Greater Deamon (FW Lord of Change) is one of the toughest probably to deal with, since he can grant himself rerollable saves and then use the Grimoire on him and he has a 2+ instead of a 3+ invul. save, with a 4+ FNP. Takes quite a while to kill, but it is 999 points, so unless a 3,000 pt game, doesn't make much sense to take.

[Demonus]

They are T8 with a 3+ armour save and 6 wounds. That's exactly like a wraithknight difference being that you cant instant kill a GC, and need to wound on a 6 when using sniper/poison rules

Which is a pretty big deal as poison weapon spam and force weapons are pretty good ways of dealing with WK depending on your opponents. Also Ive never seen anyone use the 2 str 10 guns on a WK, always scatter, cannon and shield for 300pt monster with 0 str 10 shots.

[Mr.Pickelz]

The problems with the Squiggoth, which makes it the easiest of the three, are:
1. Slowest - it walks/runs, while most transports in the game move faster, and/or fly...
2. Anti-infantry guns - Orks have an over-abundance of anti-infantry tools, why more?
3. limited guns - those guns are not suppose to swivel and turn, their pretty much fixed, which means that only one can fire forward.
4. No invulnerable save - while things like the Wraithknight can get a shield, this thing has to rely on a Mek with a KFF(HQ option) to get a cover save. (which is easily negated)
5. limited transport - this thing can transport 20 models, which isn't a full mob of Ork boyz, thus it will probably carry something important like Nobz and/or a Warboss, so it will always be near the top of a kill list.
6. Poor armor save - a 50/50 shot of an armor save on a Baneblade equivalent model that is right up there with the Wraithknight in height isn't going to stop anything that has the strength to wound it. (IE. Autocannons, Lascannons, etc...)

Something of that size, and thatspeed just can't explain the price point GW popped on it. The biggest features the Squiggoth has going for it is the aesthetic value and fluff. Nothing that relates to the gaming side.
That said, I do hope to one day afford one, but I could never recommend it as a "competitive choice" for an Ork player. This model should only be fielded against a balanced army list, that would contain minimal or light amounts of anti-tank/heavy infantry weapons.

[Shane Hanson]

It does have a FNP, which is better than most Ork models.

[Akaiyou]

Along the lines of what DarkLink said, for this to have true comparison value, you also need to be listing the benefits of a Gargantuan Creature over a Monstrous Creature, including -

1) Poisoned Weapons only wounding on a 6+
2) Instant Death weapons having a reduced effect
3) Stomp
4) Etc.

I have not listed out all of the pros/cons, but for this to be a valid discussion, all data needs to be presented.

Edit: I do note that you list these things within one of the paragraphs, but not as visibly as the data that supports your side of the original argument.

So you are saying that those 'buffs' you listed and that as you said I also did list them...are worth 300 pts??

Because I say "HELL NO" to that.

GC have rules nearly identical to MCs. The buffs are few and only affect a limited number of weapons in the game. 90% of the weapons you can fire at a Wraithknight will be equally effective against most GCs.

Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Plasmaguns, Autocannons. These are the most common types of weapons in 40k and they all work just as effective. Grav Guns are specially effective as they get no nerf. So 1 unit of grav cannon centurions will kill any of these creatures in 1 turn.

Still seem OP? Are these upgrades reaaaaally worth 200+ pts ?

For all of you Eldar players would you pay 200 pts to have 1 wraithknight that has these benefits? I play Eldar myself and as i said before my answer would be 'hell no' for those 200+ pts I can just add another wraithknight and unleash twice the mayhem while literally being twice as hard to kill.

How fair would it be for a 25 pts Grey Knight to 1 hit kill a 600 pts model? Of course force weapons would have reduced effect. It doesnt mean that they arent very effective still, nor that the model is OP.

[DarkLink]

Have you actually played any of them to find out these answers yourself?

[Akaiyou]

Have you actually played any of them to find out these answers yourself?

I believe i mentioned in my opening post that i OWN one of these. And yes I have faced baneblades and killed baneblades, without having an equivalent of it in my army, and I was surprised at how easy it was when I come to terms that it's really an overpriced vehicle that can be killed in very much the same way as any other with a few extra rules which they pay ridiculous amounts of points for.

On the receiving end of that stick I have found my Barbed Hierodule quite lacking and much too easy to kill to the point where if i want him to do anything useful i have to seriously strategize even more than usual because he's the complete opposite of an 'I-win' button. More like a 'I'm playing with a handicap since i paid for this thing' button.

It's a few handful that are packing too much power. The great majority is a detriment to whoever wields them. Or at best decent. Thus my 2 cents

[Rothgar]

I think most of the OMG forgeworld reaction is in regards to the D-weapons (more specifically AOE D-weapons), not so much the GC's. but if you want a Numbers rundown. (having played tau vs them all). more T8/AV14 with a big amount of Wounds/HP does make it harder for some armies to deal with. However the 5" blast marker of the Macro-cannon "kindly remove your entire HQ... no save"... is a little much. Especially when you count the defensive of the Macrocannon. AV 15 and you have to get a Pen to do anything to it. So... requiring Meltas (very close range) or a S10 hit and a roll of a 6. Ya. It isn't the SH/GC as much as the D's.

But in regards to those GC's vs a wraithknight.
1. a GC has a 12" move vs 6" of the wraithknight. Much nicer to get in and stompy stompy.
2. Fire at separate targets with each of it's weapons and Ordnance weapons fire has no effect on the GC, However, can't overwatch. (considering overwatch requires those nasty 6's to hit, i wouldn't count this as much of a downside)
3. Stomp attack. (has the potential to be much more effective than the base attacks that the creature has)
4. immunity to instant death (hello Eldar D-cannon), Snipers/Poison weapons only wounding on 6+ vs normal (a huge bonus vs dark eldar)
5. Fearless
6. FNP. A nice boost to it's statline Wounds... effectively 33% higher than listed (which does bring the Squiggoth in line with the number of wounds vs the wraithknights)
7. Strikedown - Now Mr. Hierodule strikes faster than Mr Force commander. (also a nice benefit when you have supporting units about to strike into the melee.)

The bonuses for GC's make them much more effective than the simple statline entails. Worth the points? depends on what you support it with, but that's the same with any unit.
and if you want to make a good comparison on those Hierodule guns, you should also include the other end of the spectrum. 2 Cannons assault 6 - 50% hits so 3 hits against 2 separate squads, well.. There's 2 crisis suit teams, or Mr. Wraithknight (depends on how well he rolls his ++ saves), or that nice HQ squad that your army just popped out of the transport.