Does Lion El'Jonsson have Asperger's Syndrome?

[DemonFerret]

[QUOTE=Kovnik Obama;380102

In any cases, Asperger's core features also includes stereotyped and repetitive motor behaviours, as well as the inability to harmonize interests and information gathering (Asperger's will often memorize ridiculously large amounts of data about things they do not care at all about, and can't stop themselves). Obviously, these aspects of Aspergers would be highly detrimental to any strategos.[/QUOTE]

I am on the autism spectrum with asperger's and have always found the conversation between zharial and Jonson about Jonsons appointment to Grand Master humorous because he mentions how sensitive his hearing is and how people forget about it. That is completely relevent to autism because oftentimes that is exactly the case. We (people with asperger's) dont have filters on what comes in from our senses and cant shut it off. Ive always thought jonson was similar. Just my 2 cents though.

[Katharon]

I am on the autism spectrum with asperger's and have always found the conversation between zharial and Jonson about Jonsons appointment to Grand Master humorous because he mentions how sensitive his hearing is and how people forget about it. That is completely relevent to autism because oftentimes that is exactly the case. We (people with asperger's) dont have filters on what comes in from our senses and cant shut it off. Ive always thought jonson was similar. Just my 2 cents though.

So does that mean Superman has Aspergers too? Jonson is a super-post-human being created for perfection to fight wars of unimaginable violence and survive them -- he does not have Aspergers.

[Resinpants]

[QUOTE=Kovnik Obama;380102]To OP : No. A Primarch's brain isn't a human brain, therefore it cannot have a specifically human disorder. Furthermore, a Primarch's brain is designed, as opposed to evolved. What would appear to us to be a pervasive disorder could be the intended result.

This point has been raised before, and my response is that whilst the Primarchs, and indeed all Astartes, Custodes and Proto-Astartes/thunder warriors, are undeniably super-human , post-human and more, they have as their basic genetic blueprint the human genome. They all have their faults, foibles and tics - jealousy, hubris, pride, madness, superiority, (I find Lorgar's need to worship particularly interesting, and as an atheist I have some views on that too, but one controversy at a time....). But their humanity, and all it's splendid variety could not be eliminated, and that it was the Emperor's arrogance in thinking that he could strip that away to his own ends is a root cause of the HH. I'd love to learn more about Curze, especially as his Legion hate him!

[Kovnik Obama]

The point isn't that Primarchs and humans don't share common mental features, but that the peculiar origins of the Primarchs, as (objective) creatures, makes it impossible to compare those features to those obtaines through the developpment of human mental features. DemonFerret's example is actually à propos here, since what would appear to us to be aural hypersensitivity, something which is clearly not an advantage, could be the intended result for a designed mind : "Who cares about the fact that said Primarch must constantly deal with a migraine, he can hear hearthbeats from 3 miles away! He's a warrior-god, not a geriatric care recipient, he can endure it!"

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.

[Katharon]

The point isn't that Primarchs and humans don't share common mental features, but that the peculiar origins of the Primarchs, as (objective) creatures, makes it impossible to compare those features to those obtaines through the developpment of human mental features. DemonFerret's example is actually à propos here, since what would appear to us to be aural hypersensitivity, something which is clearly not an advantage, could be the intended result for a designed mind : "Who cares about the fact that said Primarch must constantly deal with a migraine, he can hear hearthbeats from 3 miles away! He's a warrior-god, not a geriatric care recipient, he can endure it!"

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.

Even Space Marines, regular Astartes, have enhanced hearing and the ability to tune things out as well. It's not a sign of some sort of frailty, syndrome, or disease. They are weapons made for war. Living weapons, but weapons none-the-less.

[Resinpants]

The problem is that of design. It makes no sense whatsoever to call the various Primarchs psychopaths or sociopaths, because that implies a normal 'Primarchial' psyche which would exhibit the same features that a human would. A Primarch with the mind of a stable, sociable human being would've been of very little use to the Emperor, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

This is a good point, and one that the Thunder Warrior, Babu Dhakal touched on in "The Outcast Dead", however, the Emperor clearly did design them to be more than warriors, why else appoint Horus to deal with the Crusade? I think he had a purpose for them at the Crusade's end. However, if it's all in the design, I think my point still stands, would the Emperor have designed Curze's insanity, Lorgar's fealty, Fulgrim's hubris and pride? Would he have designed the mysterious two missing Primarchs to fail?

In a sense I think you're right, the intention of the Emperor was to elevate them beyond humanity, but he failed.

[Gwhizz84]

This is a good point, and one that the Thunder Warrior, Babu Dhakal touched on in "The Outcast Dead", however, the Emperor clearly did design them to be more than warriors, why else appoint Horus to deal with the Crusade? I think he had a purpose for them at the Crusade's end. However, if it's all in the design, I think my point still stands, would the Emperor have designed Curze's insanity, Lorgar's fealty, Fulgrim's hubris and pride? Would he have designed the mysterious two missing Primarchs to fail?

In a sense I think you're right, the intention of the Emperor was to elevate them beyond humanity, but he failed.

This is my first post (Hi!) but I had to respond to this.. The Emperor designed them to be entirely blank slates that He could subsequently program ideal behaviour into, I think. I'm fairly sure he didn't expect the Primarchs to get abducted and thrown half way across the galaxy and learn their identities and priorities from very human sources. Lorgar got raised by religious fanatics, the Lion got raised by no one and thats why he struggles to react and adapt to humanity, Guilliman got raised by a beneficient leader, Curze was raised in the shadows etc.. Basically they got shaped by environment rather than design

[Resinpants]

Hi Gwhizz84!

The age-old nature/nurture debate! I believe that it's not one or other that shapes our psyche, but a combination of both. I think that the Primarchs inherited different aspects of their father's personality, so in that sense I have to disagree.

But the notion that they weren't "finished", and not trained by him as they matured is certainly an interesting point. Can we start again? :-)

[Gwhizz84]

Mm I guess I agree, after all you can get *******s out of good situations and good people out of ****ty lifestyles. In this case it's stated that primarchs inherited one primary characteristic that dominate their personality.. Horus - ambition, Sanguinius - innonence, Lorgar - faith and so on. What would be very interesting is if you consider what would happen if you swapped around some of their homeworlds and upbringing.. Guilliman and Curze for instance, or Magnus and Dorn. Also something to consider, how would Angron have turned out if he didn't have the Butcher's Nails rewiring his brain?

[Resinpants]

[QUOTE=Gwhizz84;380708] Also something to consider, how would Angron have turned out if he didn't have the Butcher's Nails rewiring his brain?

Poor Angron, of all of them I think he's the most tragic! If the Primarchs were designed to be natural born killers as Kovnik Obama has suggested, then he wouldn't have needed the Nails, would he? I reckon he was more scholarly like Magnus or Lorgar, and not cut out for the life of a warrior. Perhaps inheriting the Emperors compassion and altruism! Perhaps in his more lucid moments he's bottle-feeding orphaned lambs and petitioning the Imperium to stop strip-mining every world they colonise! Angron is clearly an homage to "Mean Machine" from Judge Dredd's Angel Gang!