Need help choosing a Space Marines chapter

[ElectricPaladin]

Hopefully the OP will chime in soon. If he doesn't like jump packs, he probably shouldn't be playing Blood Angels, either. At that point, I'd direct him back towards Black Templars or Mantis Warriors or recommend he reconsider the Carcharadons. You can do Blood Angels purely with foot assaulters and cheap transports - I've done that from time to time, and it's plenty fun - but you're missing out a lot if that's all that interests you. As something to add to your collection and play around with, the razorback rush army isn't bad, but I wouldn't recommend Blood Angels to anyone who is categorically certain that they don't like jump packs..

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Wow guys, this discussion is incredible. I want to shout out a loud clear THANK YOU for everyone that has participated and offered their thoughts. Really enjoying this

Let me address all the new points of the conversation one at a time:

-ElectricP: I could tell you were a fan of Blood Angels so I pushed you a bit for info on other chapters. I appreciate you having objective opinions to share. I have thought about Blood Angels quite a bit and I'm strongly considering them or a successor chapter (I happen to like the colors of the Lamenters better than just plain red. I'd probably take the dull yellow all the way to a bone/cream color though.)

-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.

-Space Wolves do sound fun. I think i'd kinda dislike all the furry art and fluff, but it'd be worth it to put up with that if it makes the game awesome. Do they only have the 1 successor chapter of equally wolvish flavor? I'd definitely be willing to play some "counts as" stuff before buying too many more models just to try it out. Buying a used codex on ebay and then selling it a few weeks later shouldn't incur too much of a loss, and it would potentially save me from going through the same thing I'm experiencing right now.

-Interesting ideas on the Blood Angels having the best fluff. Definitely worth noting. Also worth noting here is that I enjoyed the comments about creating a chapter from DavidTQ. I'm still keeping that in consideration as well, although at the moment I am leaning toward playing a chapter that goes along fairly closely with an existing codex or set of chapter tactics.

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. As to your question about play style, I'm actually wanting to do mechanized infantry. I do also highly enjoy drop pods...which is something I tried to do with Dark Angels and which failed pretty badly I want to have good balance, so spamming a single type of unit, like all Terminators, sounds boring. I would like the regular ole foot soldier to make up the majority of the army, having various fun other units as support.

-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

Whew! Thanks for hanging in and reading all of this Keep the comments rolling in!

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Also, if I wanted to play Mantis Warriors, wouldn't the default codex be Space Marines with White Scars chapter tactics? I realize that it's not a requirement to stay within the lineage of the founding chapter, but I am wanting to stay as true to the fluff as I can in that sense. I don't want to choose Mantis Warriors and then to the Blood Angels codex, for instance.

[Ezaviel]

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?

Imperial Fists get Bolter Drill (re-roll 1s to hit with bolt weapons) and their Devestators/Centurion Devs get Tank Hunter and bonus damage vs buildings. Crimson Fists are descendents of the Imperial Fists, so use the same chapter tactics.

Crimson Fists get a chapter master who can make Sternguard into Scoring Units.

Imperial Fists in the fluff are big on Seiges and Fortifications, their Primarch was in charge of the Defence of the Imperial Palace in the Heresy. Both chapters are big on the codex, but Crimson Fists are very tactically flexibile, no preference towards a type of unit really. I personally feel that the Crimson Fists are a bit more "down to earth" and human than many other chapters. In one of the Crimson Fists novels Chapter Master Kantor (iirc) puts the whole army at risk to slow down the march so the frail and old civilians dont get left behind to die (even carrying one himself).

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

In the fluff the Ravens actually use the fact that people tend to assume that they are Blood Angel descendants as a smoke screen for the fact that they don't even know who their own primarch is. It is strongly hinted that they are the illicit descendants of the Traitor Legion the Thousand Sons.

Their "thing" is collecting knowledge, being secretive, and having a lot more Librarians than any other chapter.

-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. ...

-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

There are Forge World Chapter Tactics for the Raptors that are different to the Raven Guard. But people may not like you using it, because its Forge World. They get the same Strike From the Shadows rule as Raven Guard, but instead of the Jump pack stuff, they get Legendary Marksmen (if they don't move they can choose to fire their Boltguns/Bolt pistols as a Heavy 1, Rending).

The Raven Guard are big on Jump Packs, drop pods and scouts, not so much on bikes, thats more a White Scars thing.

[Nabterayl]

-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.

They don't need bikes, but their chapter tactics are that everybody gets Hit & Run, and their bikes (i) automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, (ii) get +1 to their Jink cover saves and (iii) get +1S to their Hammer of Wrath hits. So if you don't use bikes, you're not getting very much out of their chapter tactics.

-Space Wolves do sound fun. I think i'd kinda dislike all the furry art and fluff, but it'd be worth it to put up with that if it makes the game awesome. Do they only have the 1 successor chapter of equally wolvish flavor? I'd definitely be willing to play some "counts as" stuff before buying too many more models just to try it out. Buying a used codex on ebay and then selling it a few weeks later shouldn't incur too much of a loss, and it would potentially save me from going through the same thing I'm experiencing right now.

So far as we know the Space Wolves have only one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, and that chapter may have died off along with most of VI Legion. It's a small stretch, but if I were going to do a Space Wolves chapter, I'd pick a chapter with unknown founders and just use the the Space Wolves codex to represent them (you can find a sortable list [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loyal_Space_Marine_Chapters_(List)#.UwLW9PldV8E]here[/url]). I say it's a small stretch because chapters with unknown progenitors are normally assumed to use one of the sets of chapter tactics found in Codex: Space Marines, but if you can use Black Templar chapter tactics to represent a chapter's unknown progenitors, I see no reason why you can't use Space Wolf, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels chapter tactics too.

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?

Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists are an unusual situation in that they share the same chapter tactics but have different special character options. The chapter tactics are re-rolling To Hit rolls of 1 when firing any kind of bolt weapon using standard ammunition (does not apply to vehicles, sadly), and devastator and centurion devastator squads have both Tank Hunters (re-roll failed armor penetration rolls) and add 1 to their results on the building (not vehicle) damage table. Those are certainly very strong chapter tactics for an infantry-based army, but they have nothing in particular to do with close combat. I think that's why nobody has mentioned them yet (even though Darnath Lysander, the Imperial Fists special character, happens to be a close combat beast).

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

It's unknown; that's correct. The thing that distinguishes the Blood Ravens is their heavy use of librarians, which people go back and forth on as to how best to represent. Space Wolves get you the option for the most psykers in your army. Blood Angels let you have psychic dreadnoughts. Mantis Warriors let your librarians have access to an extra discipline, and a librarian special character. Ultramarines also gives you access to a librarian special character. Grey Knights makes your entire army psychic (though personally I think that's overdoing it - the Blood Ravens may lean on their librarians heavily, but that's a far cry from every marine being a psyker).

-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. As to your question about play style, I'm actually wanting to do mechanized infantry. I do also highly enjoy drop pods...which is something I tried to do with Dark Angels and which failed pretty badly I want to have good balance, so spamming a single type of unit, like all Terminators, sounds boring. I would like the regular ole foot soldier to make up the majority of the army, having various fun other units as support.

Raptors have their own chapter tactics and their own special character, but otherwise use Codex: Space Marines. Their chapter tactics are that all regular-sized infantry (not Bulky, etc.) gain Scout, and have Stealth on the first turn of the game, and they have the option of treating any boltgun or bolt pistol as a heavy 1 rending weapon, if the shooter doesn't move.

Also, if I wanted to play Mantis Warriors, wouldn't the default codex be Space Marines with White Scars chapter tactics? I realize that it's not a requirement to stay within the lineage of the founding chapter, but I am wanting to stay as true to the fluff as I can in that sense. I don't want to choose Mantis Warriors and then to the Blood Angels codex, for instance.

If you wanted to play Mantis Warriors, you'd take the space marines codex but the Mantis Warriors chapter tactics, and have access to the Mantis Warrior special character. That's how all the Forge World chapter tactics are designed to operate - you take the army list of a given book (almost always Codex: Space Marines) but with a specified set of chapter tactics and, usually, one or more special characters. These "special" chapter tactics override the usual rule that a successor chapter uses its progenitor's chapter tactics - just as the Black Templars have their own chapter tactics despite being successors of the Imperial Fists.

[sfshilo]

Raven guard anyone? Jump pack assault and move all the time.

[Ezaviel]

Hey, you know who I don't think has been mentioned? The Ultramarines.

The Ultramarines are manic about the codex, and follow the rules of their primarch to the letter. However, this does make them very tactically useful, as you can see in their chapter tactics.

They dont get a "passive" trait like everyone else, they have three Doctrines that they can activate once per battle and last for a turn.
Tactical Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll 1s to hit in the shooting phase, and Tactical marines re-roll all misses in the shooting phase.
Assault Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll charge ranges, and Assault marines/bikes/attackbikes get Fleet.
Devestator Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll to hit with snap shots, and Devestator marines become Relentless.

So you can activate whichever rule fits the situation, but can only use each once per game.

They are very stoic and heroic, but have a bad reputation for looking down on everyone who isn't descended from them.

They have some pretty powerful special characters, like Cheif Librarian Tigurius, who is possibly the most powerful psyker in the game.

Also, they are stated to have a ridiculous number of descendant chapters, so you can pretty much paint up whatever you want and call them Ultramarine descendants.

[ElectricPaladin]

Wow guys, this discussion is incredible. I want to shout out a loud clear THANK YOU for everyone that has participated and offered their thoughts. Really enjoying this

I'm having a grand time myself! This sort of conversation is what I love about the BoLS community.

-ElectricP: I could tell you were a fan of Blood Angels so I pushed you a bit for info on other chapters. I appreciate you having objective opinions to share. I have thought about Blood Angels quite a bit and I'm strongly considering them or a successor chapter (I happen to like the colors of the Lamenters better than just plain red. I'd probably take the dull yellow all the way to a bone/cream color though.)

The Lamenters are a fun chapter. Their fluff - I don't know how much you've read about them - is that in the interests of keeping their oaths, they ended up accidentally betraying the Imperium. They definitely fall into the category of "doomed because they tried to be honorable, but they live in a galaxy that doesn't respect that kind of motivation."

-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.

Even if you could potentially make it work competitively, it sounds like you are enough of a fluff player that it would annoy you to have White Scars without bikes. I think you should follow your instincts here.

-Interesting ideas on the Blood Angels having the best fluff...

They do! They totally do!

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

The best suggestion anyone has been able to come up with is that they are probably actually descended from loyalist Thousand Sons (that's a chapter that went to chaos and eventually all turned into ghosts trapped inside their own power armor). They definitely aren't Blood Angels successors, and their combat doctrine is less "advance with all speed and smash the *******s in hand-to-hand combat!" and more more "use intelligence to figure out what the enemy wants and use the best strategy for the situation." They aren't into close combat, and I don't think that they would be a good fit for you, fluff wise.

-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

I think that Blood Angels can be played fine if jump packs aren't your favorite. It's more if you hated them and didn't want to use them, ever, that you should rule them out. Do you like the models/rules enough that you'd be happy to paint a couple of HQ and Elites options with jump packs? Do you like the idea of fielding one or two squads with jump packs in your army, even if the rest of your models are on foot? Then you can do fine with Blood Angels.

That said, I think that the jump packs are part of what makes Blood Angels fun, and if I didn't like them, I'd have looked elsewhere.

Additionally, most jump pack units... kind of suck these days. I don't know if that drives you towards Blood Angels (ie. "I'm more likely to win games by going with the Blood Angels' foot choices anyway!") or away from them (ie. "Urgh... you mean they rely on jump packs and they suck?").

On the third hand, try to avoid making a decision based on where the army is right now in terms of power level. You never know when that's going to shift, and an army is a big investment. My advice is to pick an army for feel and fluff, one that you can love through thick and thin... which means that maybe, if you really do agree that the Blood Angels have the best fluff, they are the best choice for you, and you'll come to love jump packs in time.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think that Blood Angels have the best fluff, but I think that's one of the great things about 40K - however you define "best fluff," there's a faction (and probably a space marine chapter) out there for you.

On the third hand, try to avoid making a decision based on where the army is right now in terms of power level. You never know when that's going to shift, and an army is a big investment. My advice is to pick an army for feel and fluff, one that you can love through thick and thin

Definitely agree with this advice.

[ElectricPaladin]

Definitely agree with this advice.

I live by it. Right after the Space Marines codex came out, when vanilla marines had officially left the Blood Angels in the dust, I traded away all my painted Exorcists and converted the unpainted stuff back into Knights of Blood, because the fact is that I didn't really love that army. I would win with it... but it wasn't fun. Not like my balls out, rage-screaming, tragic noble warriors Knights of Blood were fun. I work harder for my victories with my Knights, but I enjoy them a lot more.