What is your view on a player with knock offs?

[Tudd Fudders]

I'm not saying they don't deserve money, I really do enjoy their products and ideas alot, but to be honest they are a dying company. In 5 years 3D printers will put them out unless they do something innovative like sell templates. It's pretty obvious from a financial view they are going for short-term profits and trying to push the financial problems off for a few more years while they can still return with their traditional system.

You know why people don't pirate video games often even when its dead free? Because services like Steam, Humble Bundle, and even Origin make updating/playing the game more convenient. Same thing with Spotify or Netflix. Now I realise GW is a completely different company with manufacturing and R&D they have to pay for, but there is somethings they could do to atleast put more spirit into the hobby. Or atleast improve PR instead of where they are now and have people feel no guilt for buying a off-hand model. Selling several short "codexs" is one thing that isn't improving that view for me personally.

I don't want them to die, I don't want my local GW store to go out of business, but sometimes it has been really hard to buy something just simply because nothing is interesting or have the rules to make it desirable. I think they can bounce back, but they would really have to change.

Also it's really kinda naive to think only the box was made in China and not the model also. Not saying it isn't possible, but really?

[Wolfshade]

Games are pirated loads, football manager 2013 was pirated 10.1 million times.

While the developer said it would "be ridiculous to think" that every illegal download equated to one lost sale of the game, he estimated that 176,000 sales were lost to pirating, and that 1.74 percent of downloaders would have potentially purchased Football Manager 2013 had the cracking software not been available. Putting it in tangible terms, Jacobson equated the lost sales to $3.7 million in revenue that Sports Interactive and publisher Sega won't see.

That figure then baulks in comparison that as of May 2013 it had only sold 940,000 copies in the US and Europe.

Now that is huge if you ask me. But as you say there is a big difference between pirating electronic stuff and physical stuff.

I think you do hint at the big problem. In order to keep going GW needs to produces something that is interesting or have desirable rules to make it interesting. That all comes down to personal choice, I really like the look of the new scions and taurox, but I know people who really don't. One thing is for certain, to grow GW needs to do something different and hopefully better.

[Tudd Fudders]

Games are pirated loads, football manager 2013 was pirated 10.1 million times.



That figure then baulks in comparison that as of May 2013 it had only sold 940,000 copies in the US and Europe.

Now that is huge if you ask me. But as you say there is a big difference between pirating electronic stuff and physical stuff.

I think you do hint at the big problem. In order to keep going GW needs to produces something that is interesting or have desirable rules to make it interesting. That all comes down to personal choice, I really like the look of the new scions and taurox, but I know people who really don't. One thing is for certain, to grow GW needs to do something different and hopefully better.

Yep agree.

As for the football manager situation, they still sell a ton of copies while being on a nice service like steam. I think the large piracy problem is just their customer base. Sports fans that play games probably won't care to support their developers like a RPG player would.

[Learn2Eel]

Personally I don't care where or what you bought your models from. As long as I know what everything is - i.e. that model there is supposed to be a Space Marine Captain, that model there is supposed to be an Imperial Guard Commissar, etc - then I have zero issues with it. If you are using knock offs that usually means the GW prices aren't workable for you, so I don't feel I would have a right to complain as a player.

[Wolfshade]

It seems that there are people who have issues with forgeries, it seems that it is more of an issue with these companies/individuals rather than the people that use it.

[Mr Mystery]

Bit of both for me, but mostly the former.

But the latter? Those knowingly buying them? What makes them so special that they feel they can fund a criminal enterprise with some handwavium interwebular nonsensical justification?

[clively]

I won't buy recasts as I believe that blatantly mass producing someone else's work and presenting it as your own is just plain wrong and I refuse to support that. Price is not an issue with my moral view on this. If GW jacks the prices to the point that I'm unwilling to buy a particular model from them then I won't get that model. For example, I refuse to buy a Khorne Lord of Skulls because I think they priced it well into silly land.

However, I will buy alternative models from 3rd parties. To be clear I'm talking about models that are the correct size and have options that look *similar* to the standard kits. Mainly I'm looking for variety.

I also buy GW and FW products.

With regards to the original post here about the Elysian Drop troops I'd likely pass on the actual FW models and instead look for some other future military combat troop type models of an appropriate size. I consider $65 for 10 of something you'll likely need 40 of to be a really bad deal.. and that's BEFORE you buy the grav chutes to go with them. Heck, I may even consider just buying a regular IG kit and picking up a couple grav chute packs.. That would save over $30/unit.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

The fact that you have painted models let alone actual models is all that really matters to me. I know my armies are filled with non GW models and honestly if you want a recast from china who am i to fault you? If it gets you back into the game and gets you playing and your a fun opponent why should i care where you get your models from? Gw is always going to charge an arm ad a leg it doesnt matter if there are counterfit products or not... they will raise prices until no one buys then they will lower prices its all about maxamizing their profits. so if you wannt to buy parts models from scrobior hitech evil craft spellcrow or a recast Go for it I would gladly play against you. just paint them please lol

[Harley]

TLDR version

Pirating like this will always exist unless companies make their service more convenient then what a pirate can offer. Also Companies need to stop thinking exploiting low wage countries doesn't have any consequences. If you pirate, still support the creators somehow, because their ideas are worth something.

QFT

A little parable to illustrate:

An American company outsources manufacture to China and accepts a 10% reject rate. The Chinese manufacturer is able to product at a 95% quality rate, but rejects that extra allowable 5% which are then sold on the Chinese grey market. Additionally, any molds which become old, non-conforming or "lost" can be sold to another manufacturer to make reproductions which are often just as good or better than the originals.

There are Three American Consumers. One is poor, and two are rich. One of the Rich ones buys an original item, and pays standard market value to the American Corporation because he can afford it, however, like many do, his models remain forever unpainted and partially unassembled. The other Rich consumer chooses to buy a Chinese "reproduction" at a reduced cost rather than the original and spends the money he saves on paints and modelling supplies from the American Corporation. Finally, the Poor consumer, can't afford the original "American" product and so he buys the reproduction, then plans to save his money to later buy supplies.

In all three examples, the Chinese manufacturer get's paid the same, the workers making them are still payed poorly and the product is similar. In the cases of the Rich consumers, the American corporation wins out because even if they don't sell the larger item, they make more profit on accessories and paint by volume. In the case of the Poor consumer, the American corporation is no worse off since their pricing excluded the Poor person from the market anyways.

The moral of the story is: Most replica items are marketed at consumers who would otherwise be excluded from the original item anyways. Potential profit theft is an illusion. The man who downloads a film instead of going to the theater to watch it wouldn't have gone to the theater anyways. The people buying knock off Forgeworld models wouldn't buy the same volume of authentic Forgeworld items anyways.

If GW wants to win out they need to have competitive priced models, give incentives by diversifying their product line, offer difficult to reproduce and competitively priced accessories such as paint/glue and provide their loyal customers with an experience associated with a luxury item which cannot be duplicated such as events, tournaments, leagues and a community.

Outside of England and some of the EU, GW does not do this.

Those who Purchase reproduction items from China are participating in a crime... "Wall of Text"

[Erik Setzer]

I've always wondered where the line is drawn with this, if I 'scratch build' parts like armour plating for my tanks or bionic limbs replacing portions of Space Marines using Evergreen scale models (a third party company that I'm giving money to, to add to my GW miniatures) styrene parts, how is that really any different to if I cut up some, say Kromlech bionic parts and fit them on my Marines rather than buying the Iron hands upgrade kit?
What about the Dragonforge power cables, I mean I could have bought one of many kits like the Dreadknight FULL of powercables to use, but I went away from GW, however I can't see anyone complaining about that.
I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but there has to be an invisible line somewhere, right?

It's kind of hard to tell, I don't know. They might have some keen-eyed people who can spot non-GW bits.

I'm bugged by it because, while I'm okay with not using some of the non-GW stuff I have like the old DemonBlade "Org" models my dad had, I'd love using Kromlech stuff, or even just tacking GW bits onto, say, a German halftrack from WWII as an Ork transport.

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In the end, I just don't think it's good for the hobby overall. While I think the 3rd party companies making their own models, conversion bits, etc, just make things better.

No, it's not good for GW (though the hobby will survive if GW magically disappeared, because GW games are part of a larger hobby, they are not a hobby themselves). Considering that knock-offs are being bought because people can't afford GW's ever-growing prices, it's on GW that they even have this problem. They could charge a reasonable price for models like other companies do, and then people would buy from them, where the quality is (usually) guaranteed, as opposed to buying from someone else. If GW chooses to keep pricing people out of their games, they're going to have to keep watching those sales go elsewhere.