Warhammer 40k 7th ed?

[Caitsidhe]

Consolidating from combat to combat just makes HTH way too powerful. Get in amongst the enemy gunline, and that's basically their game done, which is far from fun for either player. It essentially becomes 'can I knacker enough of your troops before you make combat'.

I suppose it depends on your point of view. I don't generally consider the current shooting fish in a barrel particularly epic or entertaining either. Consolidating into combat can be mitigated by gun lines not being so close to each other to ensure its success. The current getting shot down by endless volleys of fire and rarely reaching the line in the first place cannot be mitigated.

[ElectricPaladin]

Consolidating from combat to combat just makes HTH way too powerful. Get in amongst the enemy gunline, and that's basically their game done, which is far from fun for either player. It essentially becomes 'can I knacker enough of your troops before you make combat'.

I agree that it would be a serious blow to pure gunline armies, but I've always thought that it was pretty obvious that GW doesn't want pure gunline armies to be good. They're looking to create a dynamic, shifting battlefield, not lines of troops shooting away at each other.

Besides, all it would take to derail that strategy - or at least stop it from being totally determinative, is some decent counter-chargers, or spacing out your shooting units.

[Mr Mystery]

Not always an option for gunlines.

I do agree combat needs a bit of help, but going from combat to combat, without your opponent getting to react is going too far.

Remember, shooty units only really act in their player turn. Combat units can fight in both player turns. Key here is to balance that somehow.

[Charon]

without your opponent getting to react is going too far.

Where do you read that?

Key here is to balance that somehow.

Houserule it... you know just communicate...
Always remember that the game needs no balance. Oh boy the future is bright!

[Caitsidhe]

Not always an option for gunlines.

I do agree combat needs a bit of help, but going from combat to combat, without your opponent getting to react is going too far.

Remember, shooty units only really act in their player turn. Combat units can fight in both player turns. Key here is to balance that somehow.

<laughs> You will have to pardon me. I have to clean the milk that just squirted out of my nose. I shouldn't drink while reading your posts while talking about this. Since when did you care about balance? When did you start singing our song? Or is it that you only care about balance when you think it is going against you?

[This Dave]

I agree that it would be a serious blow to pure gunline armies, but I've always thought that it was pretty obvious that GW doesn't want pure gunline armies to be good. They're looking to create a dynamic, shifting battlefield, not lines of troops shooting away at each other.

Besides, all it would take to derail that strategy - or at least stop it from being totally determinative, is some decent counter-chargers, or spacing out your shooting units.

That's how pretty much every other edition of the game has been since second. Guns were just fancy looking clubs that occasionally you got to use at range before something ran at you. This edition has switched that around, although I seem to be the only one that never seems to get many hits when firing Overwatch since others talk about it crushing charges.

[ElectricPaladin]

That's how pretty much every other edition of the game has been since second. Guns were just fancy looking clubs that occasionally you got to use at range before something ran at you. This edition has switched that around, although I seem to be the only one that never seems to get many hits when firing Overwatch since others talk about it crushing charges.

The best overwatch ever was the time my Death Company charged some Kroot with pretty much the entire Tau gunline in range to provide supporting fire, and also an Ethereal using the "get extra shots" power. My opponent rolled something like seventy dice (maybe it was more like a hundred?), a mathematically impressive number of hits, and wounds, and... killed one dude. 3+ save, 5+ Feel No Pain, baby. It was hilarious. We decided to Forge the Narrative and remove the building behind my Death Company and replace it with a crater on a 4+. Unfortunately, I rolled a 2 and the building survived, though I like to imagine it was blackened and pitted, except for Death Company shaped silhouettes.

[Charon]

That's how pretty much every other edition of the game has been since second. Guns were just fancy looking clubs that occasionally you got to use at range before something ran at you. This edition has switched that around, although I seem to be the only one that never seems to get many hits when firing Overwatch since others talk about it crushing charges.

Depends on what and against whom.
Most of the classic gunline armies have so much firepower that overwatch doesnt seem to discomfort them (think Tau for example).
On the other hand you have the other armies CC "specialists" beeing either quite expensive, squishy or "not sooo good in melee".
Bringing a Genestealer Squad across the table is no easy task (and even if you make it you will lose quite a few of them to things like barrage, ignore cover,..) all it needs then is an unit firing overwatch (maybe even with a flamer since you going against nids) to get another few down. And THEN you still have to worry if your charge is even gonna be successful (especially if you lose models).

[interrogator_chaplain]

I like the idea of bringing back consolidate into combat, so long as something like random charge length remains in play or becomes something like 6"+D3 and you're allowed to Overwatch. It's a decent way to increase the effectiveness of CC while still making it not the be-all-end-all of strategies.

Too many times my friend with 'Nids gets blown away too quickly to be a terrifying threat, instead relying on Flyrants to do the bulk of the work.

[Mr Mystery]

<laughs> You will have to pardon me. I have to clean the milk that just squirted out of my nose. I shouldn't drink while reading your posts while talking about this. Since when did you care about balance? When did you start singing our song? Or is it that you only care about balance when you think it is going against you?

Don't worry, one day you'll master gentlemanly communication.

Now, in the mean time... Currently, shooting is indeed dominant. Not so bad with a decent amount and variety of terrain, but that's quite a big qualifier for most people, particularly in tournaments, which I understand often lack for terrain.

But. Having spent 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition with close combat being dominant, 6th Edition has been a lot more fun for shooty armies.

As has been covered, Overwatch isn't the nasty killer some might claim. Ultimately it's a one in six chance to hit per shot. If that was any shooting unit in the general run of things, they'd be rightly viewed as a bit crap. Net result? People's fear of Overwatch stems entirely from Tau. Or rather, Tau who have been able to light up certain units like a Christmas Tree.

Big issue here? All combat strategies are still based in the old system. For instance, assaulting piecemeal. Just doesn't work any more. You get all shot to bits. However, you can still win with assault if you can arrange multiple assaults against multiple enemy units. Get them bogged down, and shooting counts for little. Once you're stuck in, HTH remains as deadly as ever. After all, a decisive round of shooting has to wipe out the enemy entirely, which can be a tall order. Decisive round of HTH? Against a decent percentage of units, it's curtains for them on account they'll break, then be caught by the victorious unit.

Now, a straight swap back to easy combat hopping swings things too much into combat's favour. It takes much of the challenge out of the game. And yes, even a shooty army presents a challenge to the player, with things like target selection and prioritisation.

Trick is make both on an equal footing, something which hasn't quite occured yet.

But don't worry. Even if they nail it, I'm sure there'll be something else to whine endlessly on about.