Playing with non-gw models

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

ah nevermind, im too blurry and dizzy today, ignore me :P

but I wouldnt mind the coke drop-pod if I got to drink it later :P

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Only if you destroy it Otherwise, it's coming back to base, lol.

[Aldramelech]

Some of the attitudes towards counts-as armies disturb me in their zeal and forceful nature . I guess I can understand real cheapo crap like the army-men, but when all the bits come from mostly or entirely GW, I dont get what the problem is ??

Me and my gaming group actually spend way MORE money on GW than most when we build armies because we convert and counts-as everything. This is out of love of expanding the universe and creating unique armies.

For example my latest army is a small 500pt force of Aliens that look like flies which are chaotic/nurgle. The price for the 13 models comes to, get this : £248 pounds. They are to be a support force to our shared non-death-guard chaos marines. Also, my Krell/Enslaver army cost me so far about £100 for the first 1000pts, I plan to make it 3000pts in total, so that'll be about £300 quid going into Forge World's pocket...if you dont wanna play em cos they arent the same size/shape as Eldar jetbikes I guess thats your incentive, but id like to know what rules you'd think suit 15 converted Mietic Spores/spore mines ect.

As for non-GW stuff, I don't see the problem really...whats wrong with simple things like 1 or 2 non-GW models or Cadians all with non-GW heads to make them look like a different regiment ? it only diversifies and creates interesting armies IMO.. otherwise the hobby would of gotten painfully boring by now if all we saw were template armies (insert popular well known craftworld/ork klan/chapter/chaos legion ect here). At least for me, variety is the spice of life.

Now what your talking about is more then acceptable to my way of thinking. That takes time, lots of effort and to a lesser extent money. Bet it looks good too. What I'm against is people who cant be bothered to put in the work. My IG are all GW but alot has been converted for the sake of WYSIWYG and to make my army stand out. But it has been converted using GW parts, not easy endlessly trolling ebay for Plasma Pistols and Melta Bombs and not cheap either.

What I think most people have a problem with is someone who turns up with something that bears no resemblance to what it should be because their too lazy to paint, collect and model, and if thats the case why are they bothering? On a personal note I cant be doing with people who brought an alternative product out of spite because they don't like GW. If you dislike them that much play something else.

[TSINI]

well it depends on what end of the scale we are talking about

swapping GW heads for heads from a different system isnt really changing the look of the game, it gives your minis character and makes them feel much more like your very own personal army which you are attached to and love to play games with. (all my conscripts are simply cadians with gas mask WWII heads from west wind productons, see them [URL="http://lucky88th.blogspot.com/2009/07/getting-there-conscripting-promotions.html"]here[/URL])

the other end of the scale is the people who make minis from smarties tubes (i overexagerate insanely there, but you get the idea) ((or as you say, the green plastic army men)) for one, if the bases are not 25mm, then you've already skewed the game mechanic slightly.
but secondly and most importantly, if i buy a 3000 point GW army, and spend months converting the heads and armour, then painting them up, applying transfers and washing and inking in detail, then i'd like to see them on a nicely painted, terrain covered board against a similarly nicely painted army.

there is the middle ground though, for example [URL="http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26953"]UberKroot[/URL] who makes some brilliant Fringe armies, by hacking apart models, re posing them and re-arming them, then using simple count as rules for the gameplay. but he doesit in a way thats not illegal because theyre all based on 25mm bases, they abide by the codex rules (in the case of that K'Nib army, they may look like spiders, but they "Count As" chaos space marines) as long as the opponent understands which unit is which its all fine. Mousemuffins on the otherhand, takes a different approach, scratch building models to count as units in his army. in the case of the [URL="http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67836&hl=mousemuffin"]steam-crons[/URL] he has scratchbuilt a Tri-pod to count as a monolith, but because his whole army is victorian-esque, it works so well. his [URL="http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=64691&hl=panther"]Knights Panther[/URL] are astonishing, the dreadnoughts are HUGE terminators, and his landraider, is a HUGE dreadnought. they have the right weapons, and are just simple count as models. they look amazing, in fact theres some really nice photos of the whole army [URL="http://www.mikesphotography.com.au/MiF_2009/index.html"]here[/URL] (10th picture down)

so i think it's dificult to quantify what should be allowed at tournaments, simply because if you dissallow ALL non-GW models, you will miss out on some supremely fantastic armies. But a simple warning stating that Green-army men will not be tolerated should be a good indication...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Now what your talking about is more then acceptable to my way of thinking. That takes time, lots of effort and to a lesser extent money. Bet it looks good too. What I'm against is people who cant be bothered to put in the work. My IG are all GW but alot has been converted for the sake of WYSIWYG and to make my army stand out. But it has been converted using GW parts, not easy endlessly trolling ebay for Plasma Pistols and Melta Bombs and not cheap either..

[url]http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210546&page=2[/url]

well, you can see my Krell/Enslavers there if you want. It took a long time to find an army-list to counts-as for them. But im more than open to constructive-crit on the rules used. Its really hard to find rules that work with giant killer cthulhu squids though :/

What I think most people have a problem with is someone who turns up with something that bears no resemblance to what it should be because their too lazy to paint, collect and model, and if thats the case why are they bothering? On a personal note I cant be doing with people who brought an alternative product out of spite because they don't like GW. If you dislike them that much play something else.

Ok, in that case I agree thanks for clarifying, im not the best at writing and explaining my thoughts so my sincerest appologies if you or any others felt I was being defensive/aggressive ect.

I rarely use other companies models in my GW armies, with the exception of 2 models for my 2000pt Tzeentch daemons. I love the horrors/screamers/flamers but strongly dislike the tzeentch greater daemon and Daemon prince models. Instead I used two RAFM models, the Flying polyp (greater daemon) cos I feel it represents change and works with the horrors/screamers/flamers imagery than the chicken model, and the daemon prince model is a RAFM Nyarlathotep model. Both the daemon prince and greater daemon have extra GW bits to show what they are/weapons ect... The rest of the army is are all entirely GW which includes 40 horrors, 10 screamers, 10 flamers, a soul grinder and a host of other stuff I havent painted yet. So for me it wasnt out of Spite, but more because I felt those two specific models just didnt fit with Tzeentch, or at least my vision of what I feel Tzeentch daemons are (lovecraftian kinda stuff).

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TSINI,

I'm a HUGE fan of UberKroot's armies, and I also really loved Mousemuffins Steam-crons, both examples of the kind of armies I love to see. Truly works of art. I can only hope my stuff oneday looks even a third as good as theres

[Ordsnik]

There's no such thing as the "GW" hobby.

There's a miniature gaming hobby, which predates GW by a long time-the oldest set of rules I know of for pitting toy army men against each other was written by HG Wells- but the separate "GW" hobby is a marketing invention. GW makes stuff for mini-gamers, really attractive minis and outstanding fluff and background materials and even some really decent rules, but they do not, by themselves, comprise the entire hobby. Pig Iron and so on are all part of the same hobby, and making your own stuff from odds and ends and plasticard and so on has always been an important part of it. You're "supporting the hobby" just as much by doing any of that as by buying GW.

More specifically, while I understand that (for example) Assault on Black Reach is priced to be a relatively cheap introduction to 40K, when I bought the box I wasn't buying a long term commitment to GW. I was just buying the rules to a game, and some minis to play the game with. I don't owe GW anything past that. When I buy GW minis to play 40K with, I'm buying them because they're nice minis, and I think they're worth the price GW is charging for them. I don't have any obligation to GW-legally or morally- to buy more of their minis to use the rules I've already paid for.

Please don't take me wrong-none of this is meant as a criticism of GW. I like their stuff, I buy their stuff, and I'm glad to support a company that's given me some pleasure in the past. Furthermore, I understand completely that in a GW store or a GW tournament they've got every right to insist that people use their products. But framing general use of GW stuff as a moral imperative is just falling into a marketing trap.

[The Plastic Surgeon]

Well I would PREFER that they used GW models with the exception of a handful of special characters provided that they were converted for maximum aesthetic effect but IF the model looks like what it purports to represent and is modelled to a high level and not just 'I can't be bothered buying proper models nor modelling them' then I'm personally fine with it. I mean someone can scratch build a whole IG Tank army and that technically isn't using GW mini's but if he's done if because he prefers his own style and it is still intuitive, then why not?

[Dannicus]

I have no problem using or having my opponent use non-GW models. In my opinion, if the player prefers the models, and the are reminiscent of what they are intended to represent than I have no issues. For example, I am working on a Zulu themed Imperial Guard army, and I will ensure that all of the infantry models are equipped with the correct Imperial Guard weapons.

[Pinky Narfanek]

You're comparing generic sports games (games with regulation equipment, made by different manufactures, all for the purpose of playing the same game) to a hobby game. a table top miniatures hobby game. this is why it's not a fair comparison.

lets take basketball for example. It was not created by nike. nike makes generic sized basketballs to play with. there are no legit leagues or tourneys where you must use nike only equipment (which to be honest, is sometimes not all that great anyhow). Unless it's some type of nike sponsored event...but whatever. Nike just happens to make very popular shoes that make playing basketball more comfortable. But if you want to play a regular game of basketball you need a 10' hoop and a basketball...preferably one that is aired up properly, of the standard size and weight.

Now if you want to play with a 5' hoop and a beach ball...sure. you go right ahead. but that's not really basketball, is it?


If you are you saying it's perfectly fine to use you're little green army men in a game of 40k. I'm respectfully disagreeing.

Now if you converted them into something that meets the same standards (ie, models have the same 'foot print' of the model they are representing, etc) then it gets sorta fuzzy. One thing i don't support is stifling creativity in conversion work. But where is the line at? is slapping a gun on a tonka truck good enough or does it need more work?

And I don't mean cheating in the since of 'one player is getting the advantage' i mean cheating someone out of a 40k game. cause, imho, I don't think you're playing 40k at that point...you're playing with green army men. Or a tonka trunk. Or with you're pet pug painted green to be a squigoth (which would be hilarious...but still not 40k).

But hey, if you want to play with your green army men, with your friends in your club house that is totally fine.

My point is this: If you're playing a GW game, use the right minis. This IS NOT basketball.

And yes, the reason people say things like the "inflammatory techniques" is because it's true. You are hurting GW by not using the mini's they sculpt and create for your purchase. You are hurting your local gaming store by not purchasing products from them so they can keep the doors open. And you are hurting the hobby by not spending the time to make your armies look and feel like 40k armies. If you don't like paying for mini's to play the hobby, get a new hobby. I hear basketball is fun.

Now, I really don't want to keep this going. I'm pretty sure you're set in your ways, and I'm set in mine. So I'll not try to convince you anymore. I think we've both said our piece.

Inflammatory techniques are used to sway the argument away from the issue at hand by using words like "stealing", "cheating", etc. to elicit emotional (rather than intellectual) responses as people skim through the post. Dirty pool, old man. Dirty pool. The last thing you want is people to think about the process and make up their own minds. Were your disagreement with me respectful, you would have avoided the inflammatory comments and countered with your previous argument.

That's too bad, really. It was a [mostly] fitting argument.

And watch those "you"s you happen to be throwing around as if you knew me or knew thing one about my purchasing habits. Because you don't know one damned thing about me.

All my minis for GW games (three 40k armies--one woefully out of date) are GW produced, purchased locally (with a couple exceptions of a mail order or two and a purchase from out of state made two decades ago), and the GW store that I'm somehow "hurting" is eight hours away...

So long as individuals are broadcasting their elitist snobbery masqueraded as "concern for the hobby" and a general lack of (real) sportsmanship, I'll put my views out there as well. And maybe, just maybe, someone will give the new kid (young adult, spouse, or even retiree) the benefit of the doubt and let them get into the hobby at their own pace instead of being ridiculed for having an army of Star Wars Minis or a disgusting mass of unpainted plastic/lead/pewter.

This is about more than plastic and metal toys--it's about people as well.

[Aldramelech]

If this was a pub, you'd both be stood up right about now an inch from each others noses lol