Codex Orks - Informed discussion.

[Krefey]

I think you mean "got back." 3rd Edition Tankbustas had the original Tank Hunters rule.

Tomato, tomatoe :P But still an improvement over the last codex.

[Caitsidhe]

I haven't seen much languishing with Orks before now. I've still had plenty of games against Orks that I have lost. Maybe it's just the way you play your army. It tends to be the most adaptable people who make the most of any book.

You haven't? I suppose this could be an Australian thing because I assure you that they have been languishing in the United States and by all accounts in most other places too. Until this new Codex came out I think I've played one game against Orks in the last year. With the new book there are the ever hopeful trying stuff out. The light is going out of their eyes real fast.

If I was doing this I wouldn't be playing Dark Angels and Tyranids in 40k, and I wouldn't be using Orcs & Goblins, Wood Elves and Warriors of Chaos in fantasy. All my lists are built around a fluff narrative that I come up with for each army, because that's what I like to play and paint. The closest I come to net listing is talking about potential builds with my friends. Fact is I don't like always steam-rolling, it's boring after a while, I'd prefer a challenge. I have never seen a book come out that was super powerful with no weaknesses, so I don't care when new powerful stuff does come out.

You haven't? You have NEVER seen a new Codex come out that was super powerful compared to the rest? Your credibility just took a serious hit with me.

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Tomato, tomatoe :P But still an improvement over the last codex.

I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but I'm not at all sure "how" it is an improvement.

[Krefey]

I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but I'm not at all sure "how" it is an improvement.

How could it not be an improvement? Last codex they didn't have tank hunters, now they do? Being able to re-roll failed armour penetration rolls, especially when you're hitting on 5's seems pretty good to me.

[Caitsidhe]

How could it not be an improvement? Last codex they didn't have tank hunters, now they do? Being able to re-roll failed armour penetration rolls, especially when you're hitting on 5's seems pretty good to me.

Who cares about Tank Hunter? Not to put too fine a point on it but killing vehicles hasn't been (nor is it now) that hard with or without that Special Rule. If you really want to kill Armour, that hardly makes a huge difference since you have to hit in the first place. If you really want to kill Tanks (if they are that big a problem in your META) a small allied detachment would serve you a hell of a lot better. The new codex is full of gold star garbage, i.e. price reductions which are meaningless and things like that rule which sound good but which do very little in application in the average game.

I'm a pragmatist. I care about what happens in the average game on a regular basis. Probability is a harsh mistress. Orks can only win a game by managing to get into close combat or somehow holding objectives against those that would shoot them off said objectives or push them off. On the whole, Orks just got easier to kill and scare off. That is all that matters. Giving Orks a rule that makes them more likely to hurt Armour "if" they hit is cold comfort. Winning games isn't about what "might" happen. Winning games is about what does happen every single game.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I for one am on the fence about the book. I use wazdakka... have a custom (forgeworld) model converted that was a gift from a good friend. So for me before I even roll dice i have already lost a character and now have to try and figure out what to do with my list. My force was built with bikes in mind i was able to take wazdakka and use his rule to make my bikers troops. I personally do not want to have to use regular orks in a speed freak list. I wanted bikes and Bikes and now that is gone. ( apparently I haveto wait and hope for a suppliment)

I helped a buddy test out an ork list last saturday night 2k. He used a standard ork list. 4 large units of orks maxed out a unit of nobs 2 warbosses and a warphead. then he took a dreak some kans and a battle wagon. He faced off against my world eaters and at the end of the day the orks took out a land raider killed 15 cultists and the game was called on turn 3 after kharn a lord with the relic axe and 18 berserkers tore 70+ orks to pieces. after that my opponent was just defeated. He was all pumped and excited to play his orks but after watching and seeing how they have changed it took out all the wind in his sails.

I know that its only one game but it was enough to make him pretty much shelve his army :/ that was not my intention but it's one gamer's perception which in turn is his reality. Now attacking someone because you think the codex is amazing or good and someone else thinks it's bad or the worst ever isn't going to change anything. Each player will have his or her own reasons for liking or hating the book.

Me and my own personal opinion are that I have not had enough time to play the book or to even really dig in and digest the changes with in it to form an opinion. My feelings with it are not optomistic as I mentioned above with the lossof how i was playing my army in the previous 2 editions.

[Erik Setzer]

and the game was called on turn 3 after kharn a lord with the relic axe and 18 berserkers tore 70+ orks to pieces. after that my opponent was just defeated. He was all pumped and excited to play his orks but after watching and seeing how they have changed it took out all the wind in his sails.

That's been Orks for at least the last two editions, though. They can't take on Space Marines in numbers higher than about half a squad. I saw a 30-Ork mob disintegrate to the remains of a unit of Grey Hunters, right after I watched a 20-Ork mob do the same when *I* charged them the turn prior. I know people think 'eavy armor is expensive, but it's practically a must if you want your Boyz to have any survivability, otherwise bolters and even basic close combat attacks just wreck them.

Of course, Shoota Boyz went up in price, and Lootas were moved to Heavy Support, so trying to do a shooty list is harder now, despite it being the way to go.

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Ghaz - he gained eternal warrior (which people seem to have missed), so he's even harder to kill now.

The opposite, actually. Before, his Adamantium Skull said he ignored Instant Death, which meant it just didn't count against him. Eternal Warrior's wording is that you take one wound only, but ID still counts as ID, which negates FNP. So now that he's relying on a FNP save, he doesn't get it against ID. I know the situations that'd pop up are rare (S10 or Force Weapon, stuff like that), but it does mean he's actually less survivable.

[DarkLink]

Just to clarify, last edition he didn't get FNP because of his adamantium skull either. That hasn't changed. They just reworded it for clarity's sake.

[Ghostofman]

I for one am on the fence about the book. I use wazdakka... have a custom (forgeworld) model converted that was a gift from a good friend. So for me before I even roll dice i have already lost a character and now have to try and figure out what to do with my list. My force was built with bikes in mind i was able to take wazdakka and use his rule to make my bikers troops. I personally do not want to have to use regular orks in a speed freak list. I wanted bikes and Bikes and now that is gone. ( apparently I haveto wait and hope for a suppliment)

I helped a buddy test out an ork list last saturday night 2k. He used a standard ork list. 4 large units of orks maxed out a unit of nobs 2 warbosses and a warphead. then he took a dreak some kans and a battle wagon. He faced off against my world eaters and at the end of the day the orks took out a land raider killed 15 cultists and the game was called on turn 3 after kharn a lord with the relic axe and 18 berserkers tore 70+ orks to pieces. after that my opponent was just defeated. He was all pumped and excited to play his orks but after watching and seeing how they have changed it took out all the wind in his sails.

I know that its only one game but it was enough to make him pretty much shelve his army :/ that was not my intention but it's one gamer's perception which in turn is his reality. Now attacking someone because you think the codex is amazing or good and someone else thinks it's bad or the worst ever isn't going to change anything. Each player will have his or her own reasons for liking or hating the book.

Me and my own personal opinion are that I have not had enough time to play the book or to even really dig in and digest the changes with in it to form an opinion. My feelings with it are not optomistic as I mentioned above with the lossof how i was playing my army in the previous 2 editions.

The (not so warm and fuzzy) feeling I get when it comes to specialized lists is that GW has trashed them all, at least in their old form.

With unbound and (almost) everything considered scoring, there is no longer a need for making X unit a Troops choice anymore. So a Wazdakka list is now just supposed to be an unbound list with a warboss on the uberbike and lots of bikers instead of boyz. You can still claim objectives and tactical objectives with em. You just can't make a CAD out of it and had objective secured. It's annoying, but the Ork Horde Detachment in the codex doesn't have ObjSec either. I'm taking that as a hint.

I know "But Ghost, no one will play Unbound, because it sucks, and was made up to allow GW to push more sales on us, and is for cheaters that want to show up with an army composed entirely of land raiders!"

Yeah... it is... but it's also not going anywhere for a while, and GW is going to still assume you are playing unbound in all future codex and supplements. So better to just get used to it, because the next Army updated is probably gonna be in the same boat, and the one after that, and the one after that...

[daboarder]

Gw itself has been baning unbound lists at their own events.

[Caitsidhe]

Gw itself has been baning unbound lists at their own events.

<laughs> What a shock.