Female Space Marines

[Rapture]

If that's your definition of space marine, fine, but I need to see the black carapace actually matter more in fiction before I can take the Compendium that literally.

Personally, when I think 'space marine' I think of a Super-human walking around in power armor carrying some serious firepower. The black carapace is an important part of a space marines most distinguishing feature - power armor. So I would have to say that of the features that a space marine has to have to be a space marine the black carapace is on the list.

[Warfare]

I've known some pretty tough and strong women in my time. it's sexist and biased and untrue to say all women are psychically inferior to men.

Thank you Captain Politically Correct. And yes, it would be sexist and incorrect to say that all women are physically inferior to men but then again, that's not what I said. The fact of the matter is though, men are biologically superior to women physically. Males undergo changes that make them more physically able whereas females do not (in fact they are if anything hindered by pubescent growing in a physical sense). There is a reason why top female and male athletes do not compete at an equal level in sports.

More to the point, it fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the selection process. Marine chapters do not select based on population statistics. They select individuals. Warfare, what do you think a chaplain would say if a twelve year old girl was one of the most promising recruits he'd seen in centuries? You mean to tell me he'd say, "Sorry kid, you just aren't the best of the best, and that's a biological fact?" I think he'd say, "Damn kid, I wish like hell the apothecaries could make you a space marine, but they just don't know how. Sorry."

Unless you mean to suggest that a twelve year old girl couldn't ever be one of the most promising recruits he'd seen in centuries?

Sorry, I fail to see what you are trying to say.

i) You attempt to correct? me by saying chapters select on an individual basis (in effect actually agreeing with me...).
ii) As previously stated, I was under the impression that marine chapters do not regard 10-year-olds who are not at a fully developed (and thus, not yet actually able to perform to their full potential (which changes dramatically whether improved or degraded after puberty)) stage. As far as I see, marine chapters only take on fully developed humans who have proven themselves to be above the rest. Provide me evidence otherwise and then we will talk.
iii) As said before, whether you choose to believe it or not, males are by definition are always going to be physically superior. Biology has proven this, it is not something that is only condoned by 'sexists' as it is fact. If you are going for 'best of the best' in fields of 1/10000000, the top candidate will be male.

[Nabterayl]

ii) As previously stated, I was under the impression that marine chapters do not regard 10-year-olds who are not at a fully developed (and thus, not yet actually able to perform to their full potential (which changes dramatically whether improved or degraded after puberty)) stage. As far as I see, marine chapters only take on fully developed humans who have proven themselves to be above the rest. Provide me evidence otherwise and then we will talk.

Chapters differ, but the "standard" age to begin the implantation process is between 10 and 14, so there must be chapters that recruit as early as 10 years of age. See [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine]the Compendium, and White Dwarf 98[/url].

iii) As said before, whether you choose to believe it or not, males are by definition are always going to be physically superior. Biology has proven this, it is not something that is only condoned by 'sexists' as it is fact. If you are going for 'best of the best' in fields of 1/10000000, the top candidate will be male.

I don't believe that, no - I think it's absurd to say that biology has "proven" that the top candidate in any physical contest in a population of 10,000,000 will always be male. I also think it's absurd to reduce "best warrior potential" to "best in a given physical contest." I absolutely think that if boy A is stronger than boy B, but boy B shows the greater will to triumph and greater soldier's instincts, a chaplain will consider boy B the superior candidate.

But that wasn't my point.

My point was that chaplains are interested in prowess, not gender. To demonstrate my point, I proposed the following thought experiment. Suppose that the top candidate is female. Suppose further that she is not just the top candidate of this recruiting season, but the best candidate a chaplain has seen in many recruiting seasons. Suppose that, in outright defiance of what biology has "proven," the evidence before a chaplain's eyes is plain. Would a chaplain, in such a situation:

1. Not care, because the champion candidate is a girl? Or
2. Regret that his chapter cannot turn such an exceptional individual into a space marine?

If your intuition, like mine, is #2, then you should see that you do not believe chaplains care about gender per se.

[Magos]

Not all female space marine chapters are creepy or over sexualized. Some are, but those are mostly chaos legions, which are an entirely different thing from imperium marines. (Plus, some people are just sick in the head)

Find me one well written, reasonable fluff, that does not appear to be someones really weird fantasy.
Its true.
Btw, the Black Widows thing was an Imperium Chapter.

[Denzark]

@ Nabby - that reference you gave - quote: "Without the benefit of a black carapace a Space Marine's armour is relatively useless."

Also: "The extinction of a phase 18 (progenoid) or 19 (carapace) geneseed would effectively mean and end to a chapter"

So I rate them as pretty essential.

[Warfare]

Chapters differ, but the "standard" age to begin the implantation process is between 10 and 14, so there must be chapters that recruit as early as 10 years of age. See [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine]the Compendium, and White Dwarf 98[/url].

Fair point.

My point was that chaplains are interested in prowess, not gender. To demonstrate my point, I proposed the following thought experiment. Suppose that the top candidate is female. Suppose further that she is not just the top candidate of this recruiting season, but the best candidate a chaplain has seen in many recruiting seasons. Suppose that, in outright defiance of what biology has "proven," the evidence before a chaplain's eyes is plain. Would a chaplain, in such a situation:

1. Not care, because the champion candidate is a girl? Or
2. Regret that his chapter cannot turn such an exceptional individual into a space marine?

If your intuition, like mine, is #2, then you should see that you do not believe chaplains care about gender per se.

And my point is that the probability of a female being the best candidate in a massive intake, proving herself to not only possess male-like attributes (aggression for example and physicality), but to also to best any male rival and get scouted (for lack of a better word) by a marine chapter (I could add many more points which add to unlikelihood of a female even being considered) and you are pushing the odds to about as far as they go.

Add to this the foreseeable problems caused due to the fact that females scientifically deteriorate in a physical sense when puberty hits (and so on and so forth), and you are talking ridiculous odds. You could maybe give a 1/100000000 chance of this being the case (before adding in any procedural bias or inabilities). And those sorts of odds just do not stack when you think of the small number of marines that their actually are.

Think of it this way: in history, I cannot an example of a female categorically besting (or even getting to an equal level) any male rival (past or present) in an athletic sporting test, not one. And the odds of their being a female who could have managed this feat in the past is still looking far more likely than a female pulling this off AND managing to be better all round AND being at the right place at the right time to be selected for a marine chapter.

If your intuition, like mine, is #2, then you should see that you do not believe chaplains care about gender per se.

It is not the idea of a female being a marine I have a problem with, it is the odds of a female even getting near the selection process alone that I just do not see. If males and females developed similarly, it would not be a problem and we would be debating about whether or not the process of creating a marine could be used for a female, but the fact of the matter is that females are naturally handicapped against physical exertion, one of the (if not the) key attributes of 'humanities finest', I'm sure you will agree.

[Melissia]

Warfare: This is sci-fi. Women are just as good as men in sci-fi. Oftentimes better.

[Old_Paladin]

Haha, gotta love these 'biology' arguments; as half the people tend to know very little about the complexities of the situation (both about individuals and species).

With the recruitment age of Marines in mind, girls would actually be physically superior; as girls will undergo puberty sooner.
Ever look at a grade 7 class? Most of the girls are much larger in the majority of the boys. It will not be for several years that the boys will finially begin to equal or surpass women.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that men are so superior that it would be unfair for women to compete against them; if you look that the records set in the olympics there is really very little difference between men and women.

[Warfare]

Ever look at a grade 7 class? Most of the girls are much larger in the majority of the boys. It will not be for several years that the boys will finially begin to equal or surpass women.

bearing in mind that marines tend to live for hundreds of years, it would be foolish to recruit with 3-4 years in mind, no?

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that men are so superior that it would be unfair for women to compete against them; if you look that the records set in the olympics there is really very little difference between men and women.

I think that 'so superior' is taking what I have said a little farther than was intended but the point still stands. Males are naturally inclined to physical activity, and there mentality and physique reflects this. Females bodies change to make them less physically able. And I think when you are looking at recruiting 1 out of countless candidates, those 'little differences' soon become very, very large.

[rkiviman]

This is a game!! Not life or death of which sex is tougher!! This subject is a "now win" scenario, so let's move on to something else!!