Why I think 7th is the best yet; and what it gives (a positive view of 7th ed 40k)

[spaceman91]

I'm gunna throw my 2 pence in, I have played since 4th and can hand on heart say that 7th(6.5) has been the most fun of all.

There are some things I don't like about it but that hasn't diminished my enjoyment enough to put me off.

Reading through some of this thread I get them impression that some people can't hold 2 opposing views in their head and this has lead to some unpleasantness.

I don't like GW as a company BUT I enjoy 40k and fantasy so I put up with them.

Anyway I hope that made sense, I'm off to lurck again.

[Gleipnir]

Reason I enjoy 7th Edition;

All the variety and options made available and the ever expanding dataslates, rules, formations, and supplements

Reason I dislike 7th Edition;

The same because all those things make the game play slower, cost more money to purchase, and create ever expanding rules issues.

On the whole though I am not afraid to house rule what I think needs it, and try and limit as much that as random about the game as possible with predetermined campaigns or play among friends to speed things up, but a cleaner rule set and releases that didn't make me feel like I am being nickel and dimed for content would go a long way to my state of happiness with this edition. White Dwarf's team should start collecting FAQs and answering them in the weekly magazine if only to better engage the community more.

[40kGamer]

I don't like GW as a company BUT I enjoy 40k and fantasy so I put up with them.

A person after my own heart! I suspect a lot of us live in this limbo land!

I like 7th because the rules are open to the point that it really feels like there are no rules. You can be as big an *** as you want, or if you want to have a good time, you can set down with your opponent and discuss the theme & things you are both planning to pop on the table so you can adjust your lists to compensate.

7th sucks for pick up games. With the amount of crap that has been shoehorned into the rules at this point, if you don't discuss what kind of game you are going to play, there is a very real possibility that one of you will bring a knife to a gunfight... which is just a waste of everyone's time.

[Eldar_Atog]

7th sucks for pick up games. With the amount of crap that has been shoehorned into the rules at this point, if you don't discuss what kind of game you are going to play, there is a very real possibility that one of you will bring a knife to a gunfight... which is just a waste of everyone's time.

That's my issue with 7th also. With the swirl of dataslates, multiple allies, multiple supplements floating around, it's easy to feel like your opponent might be cheating you. I try to go on the assumption that my opponent is not a cheater but there have been several games where I felt that they "fudged" the rules into their favor. 6th allowed a little of this but 7th just seems over the top. I don't enjoy the feeling that I have to doublecheck my opponent's books just to get a fair game.

[40kGamer]

That's my issue with 7th also. With the swirl of dataslates, multiple allies, multiple supplements floating around, it's easy to feel like your opponent might be cheating you. I try to go on the assumption that my opponent is not a cheater but there have been several games where I felt that they "fudged" the rules into their favor. 6th allowed a little of this but 7th just seems over the top. I don't enjoy the feeling that I have to doublecheck my opponent's books just to get a fair game.

I can't tell you how many times I've been mid-game and received an unpleasant surprise from one of my opponents formation rules. It is impossible to keep up with all the things floating around in the rules and it really makes the games better if you set down in advance for 10-15 minutes and go through what's going to be on the table. I've found that a little planning stage makes the game a lot of fun and keeps both sides from feeling cheated when one of you unleashes an obscure formation/detachment rule of doom on your opponent! The days of knowing all the rules for all the armies are long past.

[Path Walker]

I can't tell you how many times I've been mid-game and received an unpleasant surprise from one of my opponents formation rules. It is impossible to keep up with all the things floating around in the rules and it really makes the games better if you set down in advance for 10-15 minutes and go through what's going to be on the table. I've found that a little planning stage makes the game a lot of fun and keeps both sides from feeling cheated when one of you unleashes an obscure formation/detachment rule of doom on your opponent! The days of knowing all the rules for all the armies are long past.

Thats why the rules say you should do that!

[40kGamer]

Thats why the rules say you should do that!

It's a huge change to the way games have been played in my various circles. Regardless of the venue, noone ever discussed anything beyond the agreed upon points value. That simply does not work anymore.

[Path Walker]

It's a huge change to the way games have been played in my various circles. Regardless of the venue, noone ever discussed anything beyond the agreed upon points value. That simply does not work anymore.

Its odd because, obviously Warhammer/40K have their basis in the Historical Wargames, where such coversations are the norm, with modern telecommunications, conversations like that aren't exactly difficult to have, ok it stops people from rocking up to a place with their army and having a game straight away, but i don't think thats the way most people play.

[Caitsidhe]

Its odd because, obviously Warhammer/40K have their basis in the Historical Wargames, where such coversations are the norm, with modern telecommunications, conversations like that aren't exactly difficult to have, ok it stops people from rocking up to a place with their army and having a game straight away, but i don't think thats the way most people play.

That's the way most people in the United States play. We clearly don't have the same kinds of clubs as they do in Britain. The majority of our games, outside our immediate circle of friends, is pick up games at a LGS or at Tournaments. More often than not, over the last ten years, you could get more reliable games with strangers and casual acquaintences easier than you could your own circle. Logistics would just mess up the ability for people to schedule. Thus, the American gamer community thrived on being able to just meet up with someone and play. And for the most part, most of the discussion was just how many points because the rules (particularly in 5th) were pretty straightforward and easily known by all parties. *I'm not saying 5th was perfect, I'm just saying that there was never a problem in so far as anyone not knowing how everything worked.

I'm willing to give Games Workshop the benefit of the doubt that they are blinded by cultural bias, i.e. they see how it is played locally and assume it works the same over here. That doesn't indicate they are fools, only poorly informed and/or researched. The issue, at least for American players, is the current rules set, combined with the endless Dataslates, additional books, and so on make it impossible for anyone besides the most dedicated to know all the rules or be up to date. The effect on pick up games (and to some degree tournaments) couldn't have been more detrimental than walking up and shooting someone in the back of the head. There was a dramatic drop in pick up games (and tournament attendence) with the advent of 6th Edition, but that was nothing compared to the decline since 7th. It has simply become too much hassle, too frustrating, and demands a degree of intimacy with people who aren't really close friends than many of us are willing to engage in over the odd game. In other words, we just want to play, not have to spend an hour plus just working out if we CAN play.

I'm glad that the conversation has gone back to brass tacks. Let's try to keep it on topic and away from unproductive squabbles. The American wargamer and the British one are profoundly different because the culture in which they interact is different. That means, unfortunately, that if Games Workshop wants the American market, they will have to approach things different over here. Either that or they will have to produce a rules set which works in both cultural environments. It goes without saying that if Games Workshop doesn't care about drops in the American market, then there is little anyone can say that will convince them otherwise. I find that unlikely, or at least unlikely from the point of view of the investors in the company. They ultimately just want growing sales. A game only sells if there is a healthy community to support it. Right now the community over here is rapidly changing and that isn't good for GW. The more people decide to try other games, either out of long term or temporary frustration, the more sales are lost and the greater the chance that the migration will increase. Games and the people that play them are fad chasers and they often go into postive and negative feedback loops. The few people there are to play with the fewer new people will join in. You get the idea.

[John Bower]

It should only take a few minutes to agree on what is allowed. if it's taking an hour or more that's because you're both too stubborn to give and take a little.