Could the Legions be reconstituted?

[Denzark]

MM stated in the OP ‘Legions of Old’. So to look at the exam question I have decided to give some thoughts as to the original loyalist legions and how easy it would be for each to reconstitute. Whilst I will not say how hard it would be I will give a yes/possibly/no imho. In order of ease:

1. Ultramarines. Many successor chapters, respecting their originators, shared gene-seed, huge industrial political base in Ultramar. The easiest sell for me. I’ll give it a yes.

2. Space Wolves. Refusal to split down post heresy. 1 second founding doomed to failure. Now, I know we argue about numbers, but according to lexicanum, Thousands Sons numbered 10k during heresy. Conventional military wisdom says you attack in 3:1 odds. So lets say 30k SW attacked Prospero in order to win. lexicanum says Wolf Brothers got half the SW fleet, stands to reason half the men. Leaving 15k. That matches lexicanum comments that a Great Company is like a Chapter – so 12 great companies – 12-15k (Great Wolf company is bigger). So Space Wolves are a yes for me and arguably already at legion strength beyond the smallest crusade legions.

3. Imperial Fists. Loads of second founding and successor chapters. Dead loyal to the imperium, so they would obey an order to merge. Black Templars already at massive increased strength compared to normal chapters. I’d say yes, Even if you said 50% of the successor chapter were willing/able to join and even if you count BT as 1k in strength, they would have 12k marines – again a smaller legion but beyond that of the smallest crusade legion.

4. Dark Angels. Masses of successor chapters, all loyal to the primogenitors based on their shared secret. I reckon it as a strong possibility – they may feel that en masse their actions chasing the fallen would be subject to too much scrutiny.

5. Blood Angels. Undeniably loyal but also flawed. Again, would they want this many flawed marines with the curse of Sanguinius in one band? Having said that, it would give them a scale of economy previously missing in trying to solve the problem. They do have quite a few successor chapters and banding together thus curbing the excesses of some like the flesh-tearers, would maybe take some of the external heat away from them. I would rate them as possibly.

6. White Scars. Lots of successors, minor deviance to codex, I rate them a possibly based on the fact they are clearly Mongol/Genghis Khanesque and as such would probably dig a horde.

7. Iron Hands. Small number of successors, quite tetchy, already lost a 3rd of the chapter to form Sons of Medusa in a schism. I reckon they would never go along with it – No.

8. Raven Guard. Very small numbers post heresy, although quite a few successors. Slowly degenerating geneseed. I reckon a no.

9. Salamanders. Highly divergent geneseed, small numbers after heresy, no known successors. A 7 chapter formation based on noctunian culture, I can’t see it expanding so no.

[Mr Mystery]

On the geneseed front, if we turn to the Storm of Iron novel, we know the Imperium has extensive reserves of Geneseed - of which roughly half got stolen by the Iron Warriors for their own purposes (probably to give to Abababababadon)

DB raises a good point about the sheer logistics though.

The geneseed seems good to go - there's plenty in storage. But equipping those Legions is quite possibly problematic, particularly on an ongoing basis.

Keep up the chatter folks!

[daboarder]

I thought current fluff is that UM are the most used as a primogenitor chapter because of the stability of their geneseed. And that those successors honour the UM as their forebearers.

Sorta.

i guees one of the best examples I can think of to make my point is the ultramarine story with the mortifactors (?) In it. Where they almost come to blows and all out conflict due to different doctrinal interpretations of the codex. It also elaborates how different the rituals of each chapter have become over time

Edit: also remember that a lot of the chapters dirty laundry is hearsay and rumour. Taking BA as an example. Theres no concrete evidence that they are flawed. To the rest of the imperium they merely appear overzealous with rumours that they ocasionally take things too far (its more elaborate than this but thats the jist)

[Tyrendian]

Sorta.

i guees one of the best examples I can think of to make my point is the ultramarine story with the mortifactors (?) In it. Where they almost come to blows and all out conflict due to different doctrinal interpretations of the codex. It also elaborates how different the rituals of each chapter have become over time

yeah I thought about those cases too - another one would be the Excoriators, the excessively flagellating Fists successor. Some Chapters seem just too deviant to ever be reintegrated without completely breaking them. But then, those are just a few cases, without too much impact on the total numbers involved at least in the Ultramarines and Fists successors. So these extreme problem cases might just go the way of the two lost Legions in the process...

[Denzark]

On reflection, are current marines not indoctrinated/geneseeded over a much longer period than original crusade troops?

That would increase the problems for sure.

[Nogle]

could it be done, absolutely. would it be done.....no.

Don't forget that the legions were split because after Horus it was decided no one (Primarchs even) should command a force the size of the Legions. That's a 10k year old rule that I would think would be harder to overcome than any technology problems......

......except if the Emperor or a Primarch returns and commands it.

[Death Shroud]

I think it depends on the founding chapter and the status of the High Lords of Terra. I think if the High Lords of Terra lost control then the most likely chapter to form a Legion again would be the Dark Angels. Three reasons for this.
1. They are a very independent and secretive chapter who tend to do their own thing, follow their own agenda and view their goals above that of the High Lords.
2. Their Primarch is most definitely not dead and is literally just waiting to wake up.
3. The Dark Angels successor chapters (The Unforgiven) still have very strong links to their founding chapter and follow it's organisational doctrines.

If Lion El Jonson wakes up I can see one of his first actions as reforming the successor chapters into one legion. Covertly if the Lion wants to keep his return a secret and overtly if he is making some kind of stand or power play.

[Subs]

What do you mean reconstitute, the Dark Angels haven't even realised they're suppose to have split up and not act like a Legion yet. And when you look at any of the successor chapters, in the most, when they fight along side their parental Chapter they act like 14th + companies anyway with the command structure always deferring to the original most famous Chapter.

[Aginor]

In my opinion I think if they did want to, it wouldn't be that hard to do. Especially for certain chapters. Ultimately I think the Ultramarines could do it relatively easily, since they have a great infrastructure, stable geneseed, etc...

I personally think they never would. Remember that it was Guilliman himself who ordered the breaking of the Legions, and the chapters with few to no successor chapters were because of decimation like the Isstavan survivors or the Space Wolves.

Also remember that the Badab War happened fairly recently (in Space Marine years), because of Legion Building, with Ultramarines and some Blood Angel successors fighting against it. So in my opinion just to not look like hypocrites these chapters would never go back to those numbers. Though as others have mentioned its not entirely unheard of for successor chapters to come home to temporarily help in the most dire of situations (Both of which being Tyranids threatening original 9 Homeworlds).

I think if a Tyranid invasion threatened Terra, you would see a mustering the likes of Ullanor.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

......except if the Emperor or a Primarch returns and commands it.

I think only Guilliman could successfully disband the chapter splitting. It's his rule, after all.

I think the Chaos Legions might have a better shot at it than the Imperials, or at least a better shot than some might think. Considering that they basically rule with iron powerfists, Abaddon is probably the only chaos lord who could command a full legion's worth of traitors, but he can pull it off. A powerful enough Lord could probably accumulate enough of a warband to torch a subsector. Their leaders don't have to be old, battle-tested, or even all that clever, so long as they can smash faces better than their peers. The good ones can then climb the Darwin ladder and basically claim all the marines in any warband they de-lorded. In the end, a Lord who set their mind to it could conceivably pump their warband up to full chapter strength. And if a Lord should find themselves in a scenario like in Throne of Lies, where you can unite the entire legion under the promise of settling an ancient score particular to that legion, you won't even need to bludgeon your underlings into submission to hit legion strength.

The fluff implies an equality between chapters and warbands, though the writers tend to avoid stating it explicitly. Loyalists and Chaos Marines generally play into a lot of dark reflection tropes. Loyalists break into chapters to sheathe their own power. Traitors break into warbands because they can't get along. Loyalists sell their lives defending the Imperium. Traitors kill each other. Loyalists find ancient technology. Traitors strike daemonic pacts. Loyalists requisition manpower and resources, traitors kidnap and steal, and so on and so forth. In the end, they pretty much match each other evenly. So anything the loyalists could do, the traitors could probably do just as well. They just have to go about it differently.