Tyrant Guard

[Crevab]

Soooo, does Shieldwall actually do anything for the Tyrant anymore? Right, it lets the Tyrant join the Guard as if they were an Independent Character, and does not allow for Going to Ground. But that's it.

As Independent Characters, they are targeted separately in CC
And according to p.49 of the BRB, monstrous creature ICs can still be targeted separately, unless their unit offers special protection rules. Which Shieldwall doesn't.

Am I missing something? I don't think "targeted separately" means you can wound allocate. Anyone got a counter-argument?

[Drakkan Vael]

Soooo, does Shieldwall actually do anything for the Tyrant anymore? Right, it lets the Tyrant join the Guard as if they were an Independent Character, and does not allow for Going to Ground. But that's it.

As Independent Characters, they are targeted separately in CC
And according to p.49 of the BRB, monstrous creature ICs can still be targeted separately, unless their unit offers special protection rules. Which Shieldwall doesn't.

Am I missing something? I don't think "targeted separately" means you can wound allocate. Anyone got a counter-argument?

Not really a counter argument, but: The Hive Tyrant does not become an IC. He may join the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. So he may join the unit but is not an IC. And that means that he may not be targeted separately. Not in CC and not in shooting.

[AbusePuppy]

Not really a counter argument, but: The Hive Tyrant does not become an IC. He may join the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. So he may join the unit but is not an IC. And that means that he may not be targeted separately. Not in CC and not in shooting.

If so, that's one of the worst-written... who am I kidding, it's not even in the top ten worst-written rules in a codex.

I'm not sure I buy that argument, though; if he isn't counted as an independent character, he isn't allowed to be attached to the squad.

(There's also the tangent of the fluff descriptions of Marneus vs. Swarmlord and Big M being able to single out the Swarmlord from his squad like an IC, but fluff ain't rules.)

[Drakkan Vael]

I'm not sure I buy that argument, though; if he isn't counted as an independent character, he isn't allowed to be attached to the squad.

For the purpose of joining the Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant ist considered an independent character. But only for the purpose of joining the Guard. That's the character of this special rule. It allows the HT to join the TG without becoming an IC. Otherwise he would not be allowed to join.

I don't see any problems with that.

[Lerra]

Can the Hive Tyrant leave the unit after joining it, or does it work like a retinue? If he can come and go, and is treated "as if he was an independent character," then he probably follows the normal independent character rules, only he is not allowed to join units other than Tyrant Guard.

[gcsmith]

He may join as if. That means he doesnt follow the rules, rather only the rules for joining and leaving

[Lerra]

How do you figure? I interpreted this rule as "The Hive Tyrant is an Independent Character in respect to the Tyrant Guard." I don't see how he could join the squad without using the Independent Character rules.

This reminds me of the debate with Counter-Attack and Furious Charge. In that case, "as if they were charging" was FAQd to mean that they were counted as charging in almost every way (except for defensive grenades).

[BuFFo]

He may join as if. That means he doesnt follow the rules, rather only the rules for joining and leaving

Nope!

The Hive Tyrant can only JOIN the unit of Tyrant Guard. The Tyrant can never leave the squad voluntarily.

The Tyrant is NOT an IC, and can only JOIN the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC for joining only. Once the Tyrant joins, he is basically an upgraded character for the rest of the game and stays with the unit.

Without the IC status, or a rule allowing the Tyrant to leave, the Tyrant and his Guard have become a single unit. Think of the Guard as the Tyrant's retinue for all intent and purposes.

The Tyrant can join, but cannot leave.

How do you figure? I interpreted this rule as "The Hive Tyrant is an Independent Character in respect to the Tyrant Guard." I don't see how he could join the squad without using the Independent Character rules.

You are missing the obvious. The reason why the Tyrant can join the unit is BECAUSE the Guards have a special rule which allow him to do so. This is not a gray area, or a loophole. This is a special rule, given to the Tyrant by the Guard, which allows the Tyrant to join the guard as if the Tyrant was an IC during the movement phase for joining purposes.

Nothing more, nothing less. Don't read too much into it.

[Crevab]

This reminds me of the debate with Counter-Attack and Furious Charge. In that case, "as if they were charging" was FAQd to mean that they were counted as charging in almost every way (except for defensive grenades).

Well, the rule does say "exactly as if it were an independent character". Going by the Space Wolf FAQ and Counter Attack, we know how they feel about "exactly as if".


But anyway, so what I'm hearing is that once part of a guard unit. The tyrant disappears into some undefined retinue/upgrade character status that overrides it's type?

[Lerra]

Are new Tyrant Guard considered monstrous creatures or infantry? p.49 says that Monstrous Creatures that are ICs can't be targeted when in a unit of monstrous creatures. I know TG used to be MCs but I'm not sure about the new codex.