Villains and the theory of narrative.

[Denzark]

That is true, I guess I brought it up to hint at it being a pointless exercise using contemporary standards, and in 40K standards, they are pretty good.

I suppose 40K-wise only the Tau and the Tyranids are not evil - and that depending on the levels of sentience of Hive Mind and whether or not you think Genestealer Covens and Zoats remain canon.

[Haighus]

I don't even know where that bull**** idea "the eldar would have wiped out all other species" comes from. They did not do it at the height of their power and there is no fluff indication that they ever planned to.

Biel-tan? It maybe wasn't their goal in the past, but it is at least part of it now.

[daboarder]

That is true, I guess I brought it up to hint at it being a pointless exercise using contemporary standards, and in 40K standards, they are pretty good.

I suppose 40K-wise only the Tau and the Tyranids are not evil - and that depending on the levels of sentience of Hive Mind and whether or not you think Genestealer Covens and Zoats remain canon.

yeah I figured that was what you were trying for and was just hammering the point home with typical sledgehammer subtlety.

I wouldnt even rate tau or nids as "good guys"

because nids aren't jsut animals the Hive mind fully comprehends terror war and the consequences of what it does, and the tau are a dangerously niave expansionist totalitarian race with an inbuilt caste system

edit: just to elaborate on the Tyranid point, when the background refers to the swarm as a "galactic predator" I always found it to be more a suggestion that the Hive mind is just so far beyond comprehension rather than being driven by hunger so to speak.

Much like the common literature phrase where such and such are referred to as "but ants beneath the feat" of whatever the big bad is. as in "do you notice the ants you step on?" type thing

[Charon]

Biel-tan? It maybe wasn't their goal in the past, but it is at least part of it now.

They do not try to wipe out every other species. They protect the exodites and try to keep the maiden worlds "clean". They do not attack a random planet because "all humans must die!". It may seem so to the imperium but they are running a kind of "border patrol" around their old empire.
Also the fluff suggests that they are mostly fighting orks as this is the most numberous species that occupied their old lands.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure if Eldar are immoral or ammoral. But actually I also am not sure - when arguing who is evil - whose standards of evil are we using? Modern day RL? Or the presumed perspective of the 41st millenium?

Modern day of course - it's really difficult otherwise!

The Imperium is a horrendous organisation. Lives are just a resource to be spent.

But the Craftworld Eldar - such arrogance. Despite having had their time, and blown it, big time, they still consider themselves the supreme race of the Galaxy. Currently they're having to keep a relatively low profile, because if one of the low species has enough of them, it's pretty much curtains. So they sit behind the scenes and set everyone else up for a fall. They'd gladly see an Imperial sector burn if it meant preventing Farseer Bob stubbing his toe three weeks next Thursday (dramatic license in that one!).

Their flame is dying, but they continue to struggle on. That could be seen as noble. Shame about their methodology.

[Denzark]

yeah I figured that was what you were trying for and was just hammering the point home with typical sledgehammer subtlety.



I wouldnt even rate tau or nids as "good guys"

because nids aren't jsut animals the Hive mind fully comprehends terror war and the consequences of what it does, and the tau are a dangerously niave expansionist totalitarian race with an inbuilt caste system

It might be semantics but is naivety less evil than criminal recklessness? In 40k terms the prior is 'ah let me stroke the fluffy genestealer' and the latter is 'I want to be big in planetary government, I am going to let this daemon into my mind for half an hour'.

edit: just to elaborate on the Tyranid point, when the background refers to the swarm as a "galactic predator" I always found it to be more a suggestion that the Hive mind is just so far beyond comprehension rather than being driven by hunger so to speak.

I am not up to spec on tyranid fluff, I thought it was just consume, move on (whilst providing a convenient unending swarm enemy for the 'good guys' to fight.

Much like the common literature phrase where such and such are referred to as "but ants beneath the feat" of whatever the big bad is. as in "do you notice the ants you step on?" type thing

Mebbe.

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Modern day of course - it's really difficult otherwise!

That being the case I stand by my comment on Ork and Eldar psychology...

The Imperium is a horrendous organisation. Lives are just a resource to be spent.

True.

But the Craftworld Eldar - such arrogance. Despite having had their time, and blown it, big time, they still consider themselves the supreme race of the Galaxy. Currently they're having to keep a relatively low profile, because if one of the low species has enough of them, it's pretty much curtains. So they sit behind the scenes and set everyone else up for a fall. They'd gladly see an Imperial sector burn if it meant preventing Farseer Bob stubbing his toe three weeks next Thursday (dramatic license in that one!).

Is it arrogance? I find the whole Path of the Eldar, deny yourself to the nth degree quite - dunno, monastic? Sacrificing? Yeah they nearly lost it all, but they didn't and now they constrain themselves under the harshest of societies. I think 'necessity' is more likely than arrogance - but whether that necessity is moral or not, who is to judge?

Their flame is dying, but they continue to struggle on. That could be seen as noble. Shame about their methodology.

I don't think the Eldar could be debated into accepting they are in the wrong. They are genuinely hardwired to do what they do. It is like North Korea - their actions are in their blood - but can they be held accountable for that?

[Fueldrop]

Let's just be honest: Everyone in the 40k universe is a horrible person. Some people (DE) are simply more open about it than others.

[Thornblood]

Tbh, I think I would like a more warmachine style approach. More or less each faction in warmachine/hordes has characters that are the 'good guys' of their faction and the 'bad guys if their faction.

All the marine special characters are a bit too clean cut (apart from admodai). I would like a loyalist commander who despises humanity and it ruthlessly effecient. It would fit with the Iron Hands. Marines that enjoy killing a bit too much.

the guard commander that is happy to win the war with a meat grinder of throwing hundreds of guard lives away for a win. A guard commander who killed his superiors to get promoted by filling dead mans boots.

The Eldar with a massive grudge on the mon-Keigh and wants to exterminate them all, maybe because he thinks they are all potential for chaos to corrupt them. Full on genocide would he his end goal.

The Stalin/chairman Mao equivalent in the communist tau empire. Maybe a cadre fireblade who hates other castes.

All the chaos dudes who could potentially see chaos as the good guy- chaos will accept everyone; whatever race, caste, social status, etc. nurgle will save you from diseases. Tzeentch will take you for your intelligence, not your privilege/elitist breeding. Slaanesh... Well... Will sex everyone and everything.

The Dark Eldar who just wants to keep his race alive and away from the clutches of chaos.

A mathematician Necron who just wants to see what combat match ups work rather than win or kill everything. The fascination with escalating things to see what happens, and then boiling things down again to fill in his charts... necrons that see humanity as invaders on their tomb world and despoiling what they love rather than the POV of 'foul xenos'

An Ork that understands war is what orks do by nature but other races can't tolerate their existance. A sad Ork.

[Mr Mystery]

Mebbe.

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I don't think the Eldar could be debated into accepting they are in the wrong. They are genuinely hardwired to do what they do. It is like North Korea - their actions are in their blood - but can they be held accountable for that?

They attempt to 'persecute'* the Necrons for doing the very same thing.

*can't think of a better word at the mo. Braindrain.

[Michael Bradbury]

Trying to split 40K into 'heroes' and 'villains' misses the whole point of the background. The 'fluff' establishes that each race/faction has a reason to fight each other, in order to justify one set of models playing against another on the tabletop. You can see this most clearly in the examples of loyalist space marine chapters fighting each other due to misunderstandings or conflicting interests.