Frodo Will Never Get To Go To The Moon

[Haighus]

Yeah, but there is evidence of Old English surviving into use by the 13th Century, long after the Normal conquest (discovered by no less than Tolkien himself hilariously), so the original population existed within most of England far past William I. After all, what is the sense in replacing the population when you can just rule them? Someone needs to work the farms. They killed a lot of people during rebellions to keep the new territory in check, but it really was the ruling class that changed for the most part. The Anglo-Saxons that fled to those various places were nobles and some soldiers, not the commoners. English didn't survive just because of speaking a common tongue, it survived because most of the populace never stopped speaking it as it evolved into Middle English. Henry V was the first English king to be a native speaker of English since Harold Godwinson, so it was Norman French that actually gradually disappeared.

Anyway, the point is actually that the people living in England did evolve, their culture did change and become something both based in what it was, but also new.

Hmmm, that is a massive simplification of the 13000 years and more of history that led to those nations becoming industrialised and conquering the world though. They are a direct product of a unique set of factors leading to farming starting in the fertile crescent, and progressing all the way through wars and migrations and culture evolution to result in those nations forming and having the technology that was ahead of the rest of the world. Guns, Germs and Steel covers the whole topic very succinctly, great book.
That warfare has actually been very important in the development of Eurasia and the dominance of Europe- you mentioned that China had potential it did not realise in the past and stagnated, and it was likely the lack of competition due to the political and geographical isolation of China at the time, as well as it's political unity, that allowed it to stagnate. If it had had rival states at it's borders as in Europe, then deliberately blocking the progression of technology as some of the Chinese governments did would have resulted in China being rapidly outstripped and probably conquered.

[benn grimm]

The language survived, as did some of the culture, but it was no longer the dominant culture and English is a combination of many different contributors, not just Norman and not just Anglo saxon. But regardless, the peasants, bless '[em, weren't the ones coming up with the cultural advances; not until they'd gone through Norman schooling anyway, which pretty much only happened if you joined the clergy, at which point you work for Rome, then the Norman king, then your countrymen.

Of course it was a massive simplification and no it is not meant to encapsulate everything that happened in those times that lead to those things. But I'm glad you've read Guns, Germs and Steel, I think our interpretations of the wider implications may vary slightly, but its good to know you're roughly on the same page. Maybe same chapter, but i'm sure we'll get there.)

Oh and China did get conquered, a few times, for precisely those reasons.

[Haighus]

Hmm, I will agree with that, although many aspects of modern English culture are derived from that of the Anglo-Saxons (law being probably the most important aspect). I feel like only focusing on the cultural aspects of the ruling class is doing a disservice to the lower classes though- after all, it was the lower classes that preserved English, common law, the basic structure of English society. Tax too, although that is partly because England already had a very efficient tax system before 1066, why would the Normans change something that benefited them?

Well, based on the theory within Guns, Germs and Steel, I still feel like the Middle Earth is more static than it should be, especially that it is in a situation of near constant war itself, which is usually a great driver of technological changes. Middle Earth is like medieval Eurasia in it's technology and warfare, but never really seems to change from that, despite having similar resources.

[benn grimm]

I think if you compare the men of Numenor with the survivors of the Roman Empire, who never really achieved a level of technology superior to their ancestors and the Riders of Rohan to one of the many tribes who used to inhabit the lands to the east of the russian empire it makes a lot more sense.

Maybe it was a fantasy of Tolkiens that the Anglo Saxons would've made great horsemen, but they never really were, certainly not in the same way as the Rohirrim. I think a better comparison for the English, French and Germanic peoples would be the Orcs tbh. I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the word 'Orc' actually comes from the old english word for Norman and Viking invaders; 'the monsters who came from the sea' or something like that.

[Haighus]

Well, apart from the Byzantines were using cannon, greek fire, superb armour and had some of the best science and technology in the western world by the time they fell to the Ottomans, there was significant technological progress there. The superior medicine and learning of the Islamic world during medieval times was inherited from the Eastern Roman empire, which also maintained and developed it until its collapse.

[completeHook]

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the word 'Orc' actually comes from the old english word for Norman and Viking invaders; 'the monsters who came from the sea' or something like that.

It was in a 2 part docudrama about the Norman conquest on Channel 4 some time about 06/07.

I'm sure there is something in million or so (brilliant) "making of" documentaries that came with the collectors editions of the LotR about the Rohirrim being Tolkien's alternate history version of the Anglo Saxons who used horses for fighting rather than just getting about the place, but it is ages since I watched them so I can't say for certain.

[YorkNecromancer]

'A wizard did it'? What?

I understand you don't want to let facts get in the way of the point you're trying to make, but you're talking rubbish (again), the authenticity and depth of Tolkiens world building is pretty much un-paralleled, and its all research based. You can dislike and discredit Tolkien all you want, but at least do your research before you trivialise something just because it isn't to your personal tastes.

Not trivialising; referring to a trope that I already quoted in my article: [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt]link[/url]

As has been stated, the world of Middle-Earth was created by a magical being, and has species of sapient life which have reached a stage where evolution of biology, culture, art, etc... is no longer possible (I'm referring to Caidsithe's earlier discussion point).

In a storytelling sense, the existence of Middle-Earth is entirely the result of magical/divine forces, which are empirically observable within that world - because magic is real, and divinity has agency within the world, it's very, very different to our world, and hence, soft.

To my (and I freely admit, completely limited) understanding of Tolkein's world, he based it on myths and legends and his interest in creating a kind of universal myth. Thus, a world rooted in the idea of a magical force which brings things into existence is very much a case of A Wizard Did It.

Yes, I know it wasn't a wizard, but that's the trope's name. And it's not an insult, any more than it's an insult to call 'Crank' an action film! It's simply a useful shorthand for the storytelling device that Tolkein employed. There's probably a more technical name (something grandiose-sounding in Latin or Greek), but I like to use the terms TV Tropes uses, because they're simple and easily relatable, and I'm trying to keep my articles similarly populist and accessible, instead of the execrable critique styles I used in academia.

I mean, I can do that if people like, but I kind of like making my stuff silly, rather than dry.

The Riders of Rohan have existed (at the time of LOTR) for 400 years or thereabouts, they are were a nomadic people, they settled in one place, yet kept the old ways, more like horsemen of the steppes than Angles or Saxons, they just look like those guys because Tolkien was probably a bit racist.

Oh, absolutely, but that's because he was a product of his time and the ideas that existed then. However, compare him to someone like H.P. Lovecraft, who was openly racist and blatantly terrified of mixed-race unions, and I think it's fair to say Tolkein comes off okay.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do love me some Lovecraft... But he was a big old racist.

I still love the apocryphal stories about him casually entering into a rant about how awful those Jews were, only for his Jewish wife to politely reprimand him and remind him who he was married to.

My dad's wife used to do JRR Tolkein's tax returns, back when she was in her very early twenties. Apparently, his yearly income looked like this:

January - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
February - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
March - ALL THE MONIES IN THE WORLD FROM BOOK ROYALTIES.
April - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
May - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
June - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
July - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
August - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
September - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
October - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
November - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
December - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.

[Haighus]

I still love the apocryphal stories about him casually entering into a rant about how awful those Jews were, only for his Jewish wife to politely reprimand him and remind him who he was married to.

For real? I don't even understand how someone can be such a walking paradox!

My dad's wife used to do JRR Tolkein's tax returns, back when she was in her very early twenties. Apparently, his yearly income looked like this:

January - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
February - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
March - ALL THE MONIES IN THE WORLD FROM BOOK ROYALTIES.
April - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
May - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
June - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
July - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
August - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
September - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
October - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
November - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
December - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.

Haha

[YorkNecromancer]

For real? I don't even understand how someone can be such a walking paradox!

As far as I know.

[completeHook]

All his mates from his adolescence where killed in the First World War so he carried on what they were doing, creating fantasy worlds, but with an underlying message against the evils of industrialised warfare (even the greatest warrior can be felled with a single arrow[sic]).