Levels of Expansion for 40K

[daboarder]

Surely it's better to acknowledge that different people want different things than it is to just blindly keep insulting people because they prefer a different playstyle to us?

York, you're absolutely right.

Now actually try and stick your head up around here and point out that,
1) a balanced system does not preclude the more relaxed players from still playing the way they want, while still allowing the more competitive players to play the way they want.
2) that demanding the game only be "relaxed"and deriding those who wish for a more competitively able game IS insulting people for merely wanting to play the game differently.

[Lexington]

a balanced system does not preclude the more relaxed players from still playing the way they want, while still allowing the more competitive players to play the way they want.

I don't know that this is true in 40K, or at least as 40K works right now. There's simply too much scale in the game at the moment to combine proper balance and proper representation. A Warhound Titan should stomp all over a bunch of Space Marines and their tanks if they're not absolutely prepared to deal with heavy armor. Hell, even then, it probably shouldn't be a fair fight. A Regular 40K / Apocalypse, like Wolfshade suggested, at the very least, is probably necessary to bring some kind of balance back to 40K as it stands. That is, of course, before we take things like Formations, Metaformations and the always-present basic Codex power level discrepancies into account, but you've gotta start somewhere...

The Deathwatch have become convinced her Militarum are heretical, and need to kill them all. Her Militarum are not, though. So, she needs to send a message to the Imperium to cancel the attack. If she can hold at least one generator (to supply power) and all the communications arrays, she instantly wins. If I destroy either all generators or all the arrays, I instantly win.

It probably seems like an odd thing to point out, but this is actually a terrible scenario for 40K, IMO. I don't mean to nitpick you like this, York - you've got smart things to say, as always, and the idea's not bad as a narrative - but I think this is part of the problem with 40K scenario design, and probably with 40K as a whole right now. There's just too much character in there. Yes, characters are interesting and sell the setting to some point, but getting back to the scale of 40K again, they just don't matter a whit on the battlefield. Character-driven scenarios in a game that involves tank squadrons, mass drop insertions and freaking Titans are kind of insane, when you think about it. That the rulebook contains the Relic mission, where whole armies are sent to bobble around some tschotske like a football, is one of the most embarrassingly stupid things in 40K - and this is a setting that's had Dreadknights and Thunderwolf Cavalry inflicted upon it in recent years. It's a mess.

The scale of 40K right now means that missions should be designed around large, military objectives. Hold that bridge. Take that bunker. Demolish that fortress. These are the things that Centurions and Knights are made for, not acting as background pieces for Captain Dunderhead's personal dramas. 'Narrative' doesn't equate to 'RPG,' but that's where the conversation seems to inevitably go, and it dilutes the idea terribly.

[Path Walker]

This is the problem as I see it, it's an entirely different set of expectations around what we as players should do. On one hand, those who think the game is pretty much fine as is and don't care too much about rules and balance being written down think it's their responsibility to ensure their opponent enjoys their game, on the other, some see it as the job of the rule designers to ensure that's possible and that its therefore not their fault if they abuse the loose guidelines given and cause their opponent to have a miserable time.

What's even stranger is that when told that they way they should be playing it has been explicitly stated for at least 2 editions now and that they should be talking to the opponents and making sure the game is fun, they scoff and think of excuses.

It's fine to think that a game with tighter rules would be better, you can even say that's better for narrative gaming (As an aside, it's not simply because you have to tend towards simplicity for units because various cool over the top abilities are hard to balance, see Kings of War/3rd Edition 40k as examples) what's not fine is demanding that a product sold as a narrative wargame should do what you want it to.

You bought a rule set, many others exist, 40k is not a tight tournament ready game and was not sold to you as such and so requires modifications to make it suitable for that purpose. Again, that's fine, that's a thing you can do if you want and you have every freedom to do that, it just doesn't mean your way of playing is any more correct and you have no right to belittle those in the majority who just enjoy their hobby as it is.

In short, if you don't like it, don't play it. I've bought lots of games that I've not really enjoyed playing, infinity for example, I love the models and still add to my Haqqislam and terrain, but the game itself isn't fun for me, I know a lot of people like it but it's not for me. I'll play it if a friend wants a game and I'll still enjoy myself, what I won't do is endlessly complain about how Corvus Belli are inept because the game they made isn't exactly how I'd want it.

As far as 40k expansions go, I don't think that's something GW want or need to introduce, you risk adding confusion to a hobby that can already be a little daunting, I think what is needed is a community more willing to adapt their games to their opponent, if someone is new To the hobby and only has a few squads and none of the scary things, to match that and let them enjoy using what they have.

Fans can make better expansions and so once a person is established they can discover these, the Kill Team rewrite by Heralds of Ruin, for example, is great.

[daboarder]

What's even stranger is that when told that they way they should be playing it has been explicitly stated for at least 2 editions now and that they should be talking to the opponents and making sure the game is fun, they scoff and think of excuses.

See York, its NEVER been the tournament players, its the people like this that try to enforce their own sense of the game on others.

Its the same old posters and the same old little clique.

In fact, imagine meeting someone with an attitude like this in an AOS game. If they are willing to demand that they alone understand how the game is meant to be played on a forum imagine what they would do in a gaming setting where there is no structure to support their opponent? They would in most likelyhood be the type of player that demands it all their own way, choice of mission, unit cap, what constitutes "balance" and fairness, which units are just too powerful etc.

[Path Walker]

See York, its NEVER been the tournament players, its the people like this that try to enforce their own sense of the game on others.

Its the same old posters and the same old little clique.

In fact, imagine meeting someone with an attitude like this in an AOS game. If they are willing to demand that they alone understand how the game is meant to be played on a forum imagine what they would do in a gaming setting where there is no structure to support their opponent? They would in most likelyhood be the type of player that demands it all their own way, choice of mission, unit cap, what constitutes "balance" and fairness, which units are just too powerful etc.

I mean, thats pretty much the exact opposite of what I said, pretty sure I said that you have to work with your opponent to make it a game you will both enjoy, but hey, you keep doing you.

[Morgrim]

Honestly, my one request is for something, ANYTHING, to give me a game where I can take my non-coven Dark Eldar with only 3 raiders (because that's how many of the bloody awkwardly shaped things can fit in any case arrangement I've every found and still manage to be taken on the bus) and play an opponent and have a fun game. Because either I have to do meticulous arranging with pages of rules and conditions (no longer possible since my friends have quit) or I can go to the local store and get my arse kicked by all the 'competitive' armies, then get told that if I want a fun game I need to buy a heap of models I can't transport and/or buy an army I don't like.

And if it takes some alternately statted B-list 'narrative' that only includes the stuff the tournament players think suck with different points/rules/modular options then fine. I will play the B-list 'narrative' alternate rules expansion. I would just. Like. To play. And to be allowed to have some fun playing. And not be told that I am not allowed to have fun because I lack a group that can arrange regular stuff and discuss a heap of things beforehand and be willing to talk, and that I have to put up with pickup games at the local GW store where all rules have to be discussed in under 30 seconds or the people will refuse.

[Charon]

From the sound of it you are more lacking a decently balanced army. Because exactly this is what bad internal and external balance causes. Dont have units that do not suck? Too bad for you, you lost the codex lottery now suck it up. While on the other side well written books can basically field anything without losing hard.

[Morgrim]

Charon, telling players to "suck it up" and blaming them for not playing a power army does not help.

[Charon]

Im not telling you to "suck it up" this is basically what the "Warhammer does not need to be balanced" guys reciting every thread. I was just parroting them.
There are 5 sentences. It should have been clear that the 2 of them you jumped on are sarcastic... even on the internet.

[Morgrim]

Im not telling you to "suck it up" this is basically what the "Warhammer does not need to be balanced" guys reciting every thread. I was just parroting them.
There are 5 sentences. It should have been clear that the 2 of them you jumped on are sarcastic... even on the internet.

Sadly not, because I get your 'sarcastic' lines given to me in all seriousness on far too many forums. And even the local GW store manager's response to me not getting games was "Well, you should start playing a different army if you want to play."