Split fire and Assaults

[Kirsten]

Ok, last warning, stop the name calling, it doesn't actually help all it does is get's each other's backs up and entrenches view points. I will close the thread.



See the part I don't understand is this line of reasoning.

I would say that the model does indeed target the unit, and therefore the attack must come from the unit and since an attack must have a targeting so the unit targeted the unit.
In the same way, the models not split firing does indeed target another unit, and therefore the attack must come from the unit and since an attack must have a targeting so the unit targeted the other unit.

at Some point and this is the point I don't get, is if the model attack comes from the unit how that doesn't count as being a target of the unit.

Since we know that the unit cannot target it anything as the unit has no characteristics, it is the individual models within the unit that do the targeting.

And going down to the two man unit we see how weird this is. One model counts as being the unit and then the other model doesn't count as being the unit, even though they might be identical and both make up the same proportion of the unit.

if one unit fires at another, the firing unit has a clear target, unit A fires at unit B. there is no argument there. Split fire specifies that a model with split fire picks a different target to the unit. 'the unit' has fired at a target, the split fire model has fired at something else. It doesn't matter how many models are in the unit, a two model unit still has a target for 'the unit' and a target for the model with split fire. Charistoph is correct up to that point. as to which can be assaulted, I will have to get home and read the assault rules unless someone posts them here. if you consider why the rule exists from a fluff perspective, one unit has focussed its' attention on one enemy unit, and is not as aware of other enemy units and so cannot charge them. the model with split fire is able to focus his own attention separately to the rest of his comrades. the rest of the unit doesn't know what he is looking at, and carries on focussing on their chosen target, and so charges them.

[Charistoph]

Throughout the rules it is the models on behalf of the unit. THe unit is a collective noun for any models that are joined together through rules of squad coherency. If a model in a squad has a bolter then the unit has a bolter. If that individual model dies the unit doesn't have it any longer. But it doesn't stop the unit having it.

Concussive, is it on behalf of the unit, or behalf of the model? Which is I1 next turn?

Furious Charge, is it on behalf of the unit, or behalf of the model? Is it the model or the unit that has +1 Str on the Charge?

Relentless, is it on behalf of the unit, or behalf of the model? Is it the model or the unit that can fire a Heavy Weapon without a Snap Shot after moving, and still be allowed to Charge?

Not every case of a model interaction will be on behalf of the unit. In fact, it is only when the rules include the unit that it qualifies. And the unit is not involved, as such, in shooting that one target, just the model.

And if that one model is the only who has a bolter and is removed from the unit, the unit stops have a bolter.

Consider a situation through model placement and terrain, the end of the charge phase is resolved and only one model is in base to base contact with the other unit. Now despite the majority of the unit not being in base to base and only one model being in base to base, the whole unit is considered to be locked in combat. Not just the one model.

Correct. And do the rules specify that only the model is Engaged, or the unit? Is it the model that is Charged, or the unit? Is it the model or the unit that makes the first Attack with Split Fire?

So when a model split fires he ceases to be part of the unit? Since that is the only way that the unit cannot have targetted something.

No, he does not cease to be a part of the unit, as I have said numerous times now. And it is not the only way. The unit just does not participate with him. The model is acting indendently for the duration of his Shooting Attacks, and it is the model that is doing the targeting for the first Attack. The unit will be targeting something else.

I could understand this debate if we were talking about can non-shooting models "target" something for split fire purposes or how split fire interacts with shooting at transports but this seems very simple and straightforward, unless you stop a model that is part of a unit being part of the unit in the shooting phase then magically at the end of it it becomes back part of the unit.

Why do you have to stop the model from being inside the unit? You have not explained this very well, and I have never supported such a concept.

I mean a one man unit can split fire, so by Christoph's interpretation it couldn't then charge what it shot at. Now why you would choose to split fire if you are on your own I don't know but ho-hum.

I don't know why you would do it, either, but there are a lot of rules which would be stupid if you enacted them. Remember the Heldrake when Jink provided 5+ Cover Save? It already had a 5+ Invulnerable Save, but you could still Jinik. If you Jinked, though, you could not use the Baleflamer.

I know a lot of people have tried attributing Split Fire to Super-Heavies, but that never really works, and pointless as well.

Yep. Splitting Fire does not, however temporarily, create a second unit at any point.

Who said anything about a second unit? You are assuming something I have never stated nor supported. In fact I have repeatedly stated otherwise. It is just that only that one model is doing this shot, not the unit, nor on behalf of the unit.

Therefore, when it comes to assault, either unit shot at is a valid recipient for a charge.

If being shot was the prerequisite for being Charged, than you would be correct. That is not the condition, it is being targeted.

if one unit fires at another, the firing unit has a clear target, unit A fires at unit B. there is no argument there. Split fire specifies that a model with split fire picks a different target to the unit. 'the unit' has fired at a target, the split fire model has fired at something else. It doesn't matter how many models are in the unit, a two model unit still has a target for 'the unit' and a target for the model with split fire. Charistoph is correct up to that point. as to which can be assaulted, I will have to get home and read the assault rules unless someone posts them here. if you consider why the rule exists from a fluff perspective, one unit has focussed its' attention on one enemy unit, and is not as aware of other enemy units and so cannot charge them. the model with split fire is able to focus his own attention separately to the rest of his comrades. the rest of the unit doesn't know what he is looking at, and carries on focussing on their chosen target, and so charges them.

That is a good way of putting it.

[Charon]

That is not the condition, it is being targeted.

You can not shoot without targeting first. It is step 2 in the shooting sequence, split fire does not go around that.

[Charistoph]

You can not shoot without targeting first. It is step 2 in the shooting sequence, split fire does not go around that.

Correct. But it is the model targeting the first target shot, not the unit. Who is the unit allowed to Charge? That which the unit targeted.

As I said, it is a matter of perspectives. The shooting comes from the unit, but it is only the model that is targeting. The unit is not involved in this process aside from being around and being adjacent to their part of the Shooting Phase.

[Path Walker]

A model is part of a Unit. That's it, that's as simple as it is.

[Charon]

Which is irrelevant. Assault does not make a distinction between model and unit.
If you just fire your flamer and not your bolters in order to assault it is only a single model which went through the shooting sequence. Still the whole units is allowed to assault.
The rest of the unit does not have to be involved, it is a unit and acts as one. It is always "the unit" no matter which rule.
Is "the unit" allowed to assault when everyone but a single model has relentless and they fired their storm bolters? No, the "unit" is not allowed because a single model from "the unit" not allowed.
Same here with split fire. 9 models shoot an infantry unit and one model shot a tank? "The unit" shot (and targeted) 2 different targets and is allowed to assault everything they targeted.

[Mr Mystery]

Beware of the Horsemen....Charon and I are in agreement!

[LCS]

Once again Charistoph, you have ignored what I said because it shuts you down. You have no ground to stand on here. The wording in the Split Fire rule clearly states that the unit fired at and targeted both of it's targets, and that the model doing the firing is acting as part of the unit. To believe the rule works the way you do, one has to make a pretty large assumption about the intent of the rule, while ignoring what the rule actually says.

"No, he does not cease to be a part of the unit, as I have said numerous times now. And it is not the only way. The unit just does not participate with him. The model is acting indendently for the duration of his Shooting Attacks, and it is the model that is doing the targeting for the first Attack. The unit will be targeting something else."

The model is not acting independently of the unit (at no point do the rules for shooting attacks or Split Fire say or even imply this), and he is not doing some sort of speshul targeting that doesn't count as the unit targeting. Read the rules. "Split Firing unit's initial shooting attack." The unit performs two shooting attacks using the Split Fire rule, and therefore has targeted two units. Now, either refute that point with actual rules, or just admit that you are wrong. Because you are.

[Charistoph]

Which is irrelevant. Assault does not make a distinction between model and unit.

Actually, it does in many cases. The unit may charge any unit it targeted. Models must be base to base. Models may add their Attacks depending on their distance to any base to base models. The unit is engaged depending on the model's distances.

If you just fire your flamer and not your bolters in order to assault it is only a single model which went through the shooting sequence. Still the whole units is allowed to assault.

And the unit is was did the target selection during the normal sequence.

The rest of the unit does not have to be involved, it is a unit and acts as one. It is always "the unit" no matter which rule.

Quite incorrect. Read up on Concussive and Blind. Note the differences.

Is "the unit" allowed to assault when everyone but a single model has relentless and they fired their storm bolters? No, the "unit" is not allowed because a single model from "the unit" not allowed.

Why not? Relentless would mean nothing. Storm Bolters are Assault Weapons and do not interfere with Charging. Care for a better example.

Same here with split fire. 9 models shoot an infantry unit and one model shot a tank? "The unit" shot (and targeted) 2 different targets and is allowed to assault everything they targeted.

No, quite different. In the normal shooting sequence, the unit is selected and the unit "selects" a target. With Split Fire, a unit is selected, Split Fire is declared, a model is selected, and the model "selects" a target and shoots, then the unit "selects" a target and shoots.

[Path Walker]

This is the most dedicated trolling over a 40k rule I've ever seen.