Favorite "Secret of the 40k Universe"

[ThePov]

on a side tangent, Do the Black Templar have any deep dark secrets? I can't seem to remember anything about them that seems like a 40k taint on their "Grand Crusade" for the emperor...

Well, I'm not a Templars player, so I can't tell you any "deep, dark" secrets, but it's very well known that they are the only chapter that refuses to stick to the 1000 marine limit, and in fact have many times that spread around the galaxy, which pisses the Inquisition off to no end.

[Andrew283]

Salamanders don't stay by the 1000 marine limit as they only have 7 companies due to bing mostly annialated on armageddon and after throwing basically half the chapter against Leviathan. Also the Space Wolves have about 13 companies and so do not follow that fool Gullimans "perfect" chapter rules

[ThePov]

Salamanders don't stay by the 1000 marine limit as they only have 7 companies due to bing mostly annialated on armageddon and after throwing basically half the chapter against Leviathan. Also the Space Wolves have about 13 companies and so do not follow that fool Gullimans "perfect" chapter rules

Yes, but the Salamanders just arrange their 1000 Marines into 7 companies, they still have 1000 marines. The Space Wolves may have 13 companies, but they still don't have as many as the Black Templars. They litterally have as many Marines as they can get thier hands on, no limits imposed.

[Magos]

I went with the idea that the Space Wolves have 200 Marines Per company, so...yeah, 1600 or so marines.

[Jearden]

Remember the 13th Great Company isnt really "with" the rest of the Wolves. They sort of do thier own thing and run around without any direct instructions from the Great Wolf.

If you figure about 100 for each of the other companies, thats about 1200, but figure in current Great Companies waiting for a recruit pack to join to replace loses. Im sure there about 70 per Great Company. Thats about 840. Logan's Great Company is mostly Wolf Guard, Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and Iron Priests. That probly brings up close to 1000, plus the groups of Fenrisians currently in various levels of being converted into Marines. Not counting the recruits that arent ready for the battle field Im sure that its close to about 1000 Wolves running around Segmentum Solar, Gothic Sector and Scarus Sector.

I do think given the chance that Logan Grimnar would pretty much ignore the Codex Astartes, but the Wolves are known for going out looking for trouble (going a Viking if you will). They pretty much have to, to earn honor to prove themselves in battle as Russ would want them to. Im willing to bet they set close to 1000 Marines more out of just attrition and low recruit rate than because of the Codex Atartes.

[Forhekset]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

You mean the Inquisition as a whole. Nothing is said of the Grey Knights.

[Forhekset]

Just a heads up, I'm gonna be dropping SPOILERS like bombs in this post so if you haven't read the following library of books and and don't want anything given away, please skip over this post:

Legion
Mechanicus
Necron Codex
Xenology

It was revealed in Xenology, well more implicitly implied then actually stated, that the Emperor is actually one of the old ones. A tablet toward the end of the book tells the tale of the War in Heaven. At the end of the war many of the surviving Old Ones took on weakened forms to elude the C'Tan and their Necrontyr minions. A final piece of the tablet clearly shows an Old one taking on the form of a human infant. The Emperor was one of them, and he's guided humanity from their birth (which was likely also his doing).

This is also obliquely corroborated in Legion, where the Eldar leader of the Cabal, a group of like minded alien interests have attempted to steer the course of events in the galaxy to stymie the Ruinous Powers wherever possible. Humanity they learned through their scrying, would be pivotal in either leaving chaos weaker then ever before, or handing them their ultimate victory. No matter how much they meddled and applied their influence to the fledgling species however they could not alter humanity's path toward the future, describing their actions as being "like telling the tide to turn back". Either that was a fate beyond even the Eldar and Cabal to meddle with, or a vast power was protecting and guiding them. I lean toward the latter, though I'll admit one could claim Tzeentch's hand was at work.

It is already known via a vision in the book Mechanicus that sometime in the middle ages the Void Dragon descended to Earth, looking to use the planet as a safe haven while it went dormant along with the rest of the surviving C'Tan. It was wounded, or damaged, though I don't recall the book stating why. At any rate and knight in the service of a local lord rolls up on it and appears to slay it. I'm gonna say that again, a KNIGHT, as in a dude in 14th century plate armor, battled and defeated the VOID DRAGON, a star devouring GOD with LIVING METAL FOR A BODY. It was clearly alluded that the knight was in fact a younger Emperor, though if I'm right he had already eons, epochs if you will, under his belt. The Emperor then delivered the near dead Dragon to Mars and sealed it away, knowing that in another fifteen or so centuries he would have a group of people who had been listening to that monster's cybernetic dreams and could create the fantastic technology needed to power his crusade into the stars.

Do you understand how INSANE that is? How far sighted the Emperor must be to plan out even that single step in a plan that would eventually lead to the uniting of the entire galaxy? In Legion there's a moment where John Grammaticus, an alpha grade Psycher, though possibly higher, meets the Emperor face to face. John brushes against the God's mind briefly and describes him as being the most bloody minded psychopath the universe has ever produced. The Emperor thinks, if it can be called that, in terms of entire planetary populations for cost/benefit analysis. He's willing to throw away trillions to achieve even simple but necessary goals. He is not human, he does not think in human terms or time spans.

So lets talk about those plans. At this point I'm going to be deviate from actual sources, for the most part, and start laying out where I see the Emperor and his strategy going. If you guys see any flaws in my logic, please point them out.

The Emperor developed the pre-heresy version of his Imperium as a secular society, where fantasies such as magic, spirits, religions, gods, and even himself, were not to be worshiped. They were to be be cast aside in favor of the "Emperor's Light" which at the time meant the "Light of Reason". Science. Prosperity. Things that a people clawing their way out of a dark age of technology could get behind. This version of his empire was, whicle not exactly a lie, was a falsehood meant to jump start what would eventually come. He obviously knew of the creatures in the warp, and the faith/strength of will needed to combat them directly. However if the grand majority of your society 1) doesn't know about the threat, and 2) denies the threat the belief and worship it requires to be potent, then you have effectively stymied the opponent, at least for a while while greater progress is made. Of course this strategy wasn't going to last forever. The further flung the crusade became, the more and more likely it was going to be that it was going to encounter some form of warp taint, and once that taint takes root there's very little you can do to burn it away aside from weaponing your people with the strength of faith they would need to survive EN MASS. not on the individual scale mind you, not even on the planetary scale, but once again in terms of whole star systems. I believe the Emperor always intended to make the switch from secularism to an ecclesiastical society when the need presented itself. His vision/knowledge of the future and what will come to pass has proved itself too potent for too long not to buy into this theory. Afterall it's not like he stopped being the all powerful Emperor once the Crusade got underway, hell he didn't stop once he was mortally wounded by Horus.

Which brings me to the Heresy itself. Based on that previous assumption that the Emperor is an Old One, with the the ability to predict and influence future events on a galactic scale, it seems nearly impossible to believe that he didn't see Horus's betrayal coming. In fact I believe, much like everything else he had accomplished over the last thirty centuries, the Emperor knew about it because he had planned it himself, and groomed Horus for that very role. To understand why the Emperor would want to see the galaxy burn, to provide the very real possibility that chaos could rise acendant over all, you have to go back to WHAT HE IS! In the Necron Codex the Old One's are described by the short lived Necrontyr as ultra intelligent mystics with immense longevity. The warp itself was at their beck and call allowing them to cross the incredible distances in the universe with but a step. These beings did not fear the warp, and likely still dont even though it has now become a boiling ocean filled with dangerous entities. The only thing they likely fear are the C'Tan and their Necron armies.

Everyone knows the Second War in Heaven is coming. The Necrons are rising once again. They wiped out the Old One's civilization once before and nearly hunted their species to extinction. They forced the Old One's to weaponize the races they had given rise to, creating psychically attuned races to counter the warp null C'Tan. The Eldar, the Krork and the Jokaero were all hastily developed and released on the galaxy at large in an attempt to slow the advance of the C'Tan and while it wasnt them, but the newly birthed warp nightmares that ended the war, it still shows how much Life the Old One's were willing to sacrifice to achieve victory.

So what if the Emperor planned it all? Not just the Void Dragon and the Mechanicus, not just the beginnings of the crusade and it's possible downfall, not even just his own downfall, but the preparation of the entire galaxy as a weapon to stand against the Necrons. A swirling, starry vortex filled with psychers, chaos marines, and possessed nightmares, walking a tightrope between being swallowed by the ruinous powers and standing as a bulwark against the soul destroying plans of the C'Tan.

That's the big secret that I love, and I hope to god GW likes it too because I can't think of anything more epic then that.

You just blew my mind.

I realise I'm coming into this thread late, forgive my last post.

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

And one thing that seems to be evident to me all through the Heresy is that 1, ALL Primarchs are about as emotionally mature as a small child, and 2, for super post human demigods, they all have some serious daddy issues and supremely petty things playing on their minds.

Besides maybe afew of them like Sanguinius, Magnus and Curze.

How simple was it for Erebus to twist Horus' perception of what was happening? To turn his base human nature into one of the most potent weapons ever conceived. Boohoo daddy went back home to Terra and left me all alone!

The Emperor, if he is as all knowing and glorious as they say, must of realised how stupid it was to put all these emotionally retarded people in charge of his Imperium, regardless of how much genius they have, they're still human at heart.
I hope the writers know what they're doing in the end, cause the galaxy seems rife with idiots who just want to kill each other :P Oh well, that's humanity for ya.

At any rate, after reading Xenology, I was so blown away with the amazing set of mysteries assaulting my mind. I sat up for hours trying to make sense of it all and link the Eldar poetry with the tablet and all sorts of business. Soooo much awesome.

[Forhekset]

According to Xenology the Tau were created by the Eldar, specifically the Harlequins. An insect species called the Q,Orl had a small hive empire spanning a few systems over on the western fringe of the galaxy. They were almost lost to a taint of some kind, it's hinted that it was chaos. Tall thin men arrived and offered a cure in exchange for something. The Q'Orl agreed and the tall thin men kept up their end of the bargain, however when it came time for the Q'Orl to do the same they discovered that the cost would be one of their Swarm Queens. They refused and the Queen was stolen.

Sometime later on the Tau home world, the hunter gatherers of the plains were laying siege to the farming folk of the mountains. On the eve of a battle that would have likely permanently crippled both sides the Ethereals appeared and calmed the combatants. The Ethereals all possess the same type of pheromone gland stack in their foreheads that the Swarm Queen possessed. The Ethereals appeared, fully formed, from out of no where and pacified the fiery hearted race at exactly the right moment. Later, as the Tau were beginning to delve into space for the first time they discovered a crashed imperial ship on of the planets of their system, with it's warp drive and gellar field systems intact.

It's all terribly convenient, or very well orchestrated. The inquisitor in Xenology leans toward the later hypothesis. Further evidence is added when one considers Commander Farsight. Fighting the green skins, bereft of his Ethereal council, he ignores orders and presses on into Ork held territory and makes a discovery at an ancient ruin. That discovery he claims told him the truth of his people. Most people assume that the discovery was the Dawn Blade, that it's warped his mind and turned him away from the greater good, but I think that was only part of it. Many people guess Necron technology when the blade is mentioned. I don't think so. I think the sword is one of the Hundred Blades of Vaul, and his true discovery was the origins of his species and the nature of the Ethereals. The blade was just a prize.

In short the hypothesis: The Tau a a project, developed by the Harlequins. They were created with a very low warp presence, almost no reflection, and given leaders with pheromone based mind control to act as a unifying and incorruptible center in the coming war against Chaos.

I can't believe I read that book afew times and didn't make that connection. I remember the Q'Orl story and everything.

It's annoying cause before that book I was writing up alot of fiction to justify a homebrew Chaos Tau army :P Using the organ in the heads of the Ethereals as some kind of latent psyker thing, tying it into the N'dras system in Tau space and Farsight's running off... anyway I thought it was clever, but they went and ruined it :P

[Forhekset]

The tale I had heard was that while Abnett was still working on Legion, he was so giddy over his great reveal that he let slip to much at one of the GDs or book signings he was at.

People who spoke with him said the big reveal with the Emperor and Grammaticus was that he saw to his horror in that millisecond that the Emperor is a dried out, barely functional husk of a human. While he is the most potent psyker in the universe, he physically wholly sustains his normally mortal form which is now some 50,000 years old through pure psychic will. It is only through constant psychic projection and the control of the minds of all those around him that his false physical form and irresistable presence is projected.

The blasted husk that lay in the Golden Throne is not the results of wounds from Horus, but what was always in truth there. It's simply the side effect of the Emperor's Soul having either "ascended" or having much more important duties to attend to than worrying about his physical appearance any longer.

Apparently Abnett decided to keep the curtain drawn in later drafts of the novel.

Cool stuff.

That's amazing. It's also an awesome point in that whenever we see the Emperor, as you'd expect, people are awe struck and just kneel before his awesomeness and all that business. While I've always assumed that this was his 'natural' form, for some reason I've never considered the fact that he's such an insanely powerful psyker could be used to just warp everyones minds into loving him.

He really could be anyone with any agenda - Just cause people see this awesome god like guy that makes them automatically feel awesome about him, doesn't mean that's a genuine effect.

I guess I was clouded by my oaths of fealty, I forgot the basic principles of psychic power - they can alter your perceptions and make you think or feel things that arn't your own.

[Forhekset]

Mmmk, Curze may have not been the nicest guy, but you must remember that he was raised on an "evil" planet... not even raised, survived. If you read his history, Curze was ordered to use his legion as terror troops, and the emperor backed him at least until the other Primarchs started to bring up his terror tactics, at which time the emperor condemned him. Dorn wasn't killed, and therefore "slew" is not a correct term, he was mauled though. This was due to Curze being reproached by Dorn for having a vision of the Emperor killing his brothers and himself (Curze had many visions which all came true). He was then sent to his chambers and condemned, at which time he escaped due to his dire position. The Emperor then sent an assassin to kill him, who failed, but this convinced Curze that he could not still serve the Emperor. He soon saw the corruption of Nostramo due to his abscence, and destroyed it.

A lot of this is gained from the book Lord of the Night which is actually pretty good, so I would definately suggest it. However, a lot of these details could be up for debate as it is told from the perspective of a Night Lord space marine (not necessarily chaos though, just traitor) who may have lied to the reader...

I thought Curze attacked Dorn cause he was upset that Fulgrim had told Dorn about the stuff he had confided in him? Well, one of the reasons.

I really like Curze. Deep down he's probably a good guy, it's not his fault he's spent his entire life being tormented by visions of the future, and growing up feral on a planet that needed harsh controls to maintain order.

As for him being traitor or loyalist, I'm not sure he was ever any of the two. Dorn reprimanded him on that planet during the audio book, and it became pretty clear that the way the Night Lords did their stuff was in no way how the Imperium was supposed to function. Again makes me question what the hell the Emperor was doing putting all these crazy people in charge of legions of super warriors.

I love the secret that was revealed about the Alpha Legion, but it really only is half the answer now - the question now is how long did it last? Surely they are of Chaos now, arn't they? Or is that another ploy? What kind of people are they now? I love the idea that no plan or supposed secret is above them. You think you've finally found the truth of it and then suddenly you realise, too late, that it was all staged.

The only thing I don't like about these Heresy books, besides Ben Counter, is the fact that they make me want to have an army based on all of these awesome chapters Although I realise they will be far different by the time 40k rolls around unfortunately. I'd love a classic Emperor's Children army.