Tech: Chaos>Imperium?

[Melissia]

I AM providing quotes. From the most recent Codex: Orks, and therefor the most recent canon. He isn't.

[Nabterayl]

[url=http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=69582#post69582]I repent of my thread-hijacking ways[/url].

[Fellend]

Might as well continue here as there'll probably be no more chaos talk. But honestly if they had everything hardcoded wouldn't they have built Stompas from the start? And not 10 000 years later? Or did it take 10 000 years and several encounters with titans for the genetic memory to suddenly come play?

Also there's more evidence of unique examples of ork technology, like the mekboy that liked helicopters and decided that a stompa with helipads would be a good idea.
The very fact that feral orks exists also seems to imply that they don't just start building things, with no real reference they stick to swords, spears and basic tools. But once they encounter killier stuff someone starts to want these killy things and starts producing them (or steal them and "improve" them)

I don't remember exactly how far back but in some of the old books it was often mentioned that ork technology doesn't even work, there's no reason for a walker to ever be able to walk, yet it does because the ork believes that it will. Just like they believe that red ones go faster.

And would you really consider the suicidal nature of their jumppacks to be the genial hardcoded machine from the creators of the universe? No, they saw a rocket and saw that it went fast so they strapped it onto the back of an Ork.

[Old_Paladin]

I AM providing quotes. From the most recent Codex: Orks, and therefor the most recent canon. He isn't.

I know you were; I was asking Madness to provide quotes for the things he was stateing.

[Inquisitor Soren]

Does Chaos create more technology than the Imperium...I would say yes and no.

The Imperium does research actually, just very, very little on its own. Most of that is probably due to reverse engineering alien tech (Inquisition + AdMech), or old research started thousands of years ago. (AdMech) I can't quote sources but I believe at least some of it can be found on Lexacanium.

As for Chaos we see several examples. Daemon-Bound War Engines, the Daemonculaba, even (this is theory at best but I would not put it past Fabius' skills) slowly relearning Cloning. Not to mention the Dark AdMech, who the heck knows what they are up too.

Heck if you play BFG you'll note several ships Chaos has are actually new designs they lifted from the Imperium, so on top of their own research and designs they thieve and steal other groups designs.

Are at least some of these things mastered by the Imperium? Yes, PotMS is close to a Daemon Engine. But does anyone really think the Imperium is keeping a true mastery of cloning tech in the closet? Krieg may have some access to it, but really true mastery? I don't think so personally. Imagine the traitor legions rebuilt inside the Eye and shudder.

Chaos' greatest boon is rather simple, they can do things to accomplish goals that the Imperium simply cannot. They blend technology and sorcery flawlessly creating new horrors, where the Imperium in turn is bound by physics and backwards thought. Who is superior in tech though? Neither, as Chaos is to incompetent and the Imperium is to stagnant.

[FaultyVoodoo]

Chaos space marines of the original Legions have had 10,000 years to innovate and invent, and carve crazy stuff onto armour. Also, technology is merely applied knowledge. So, by adding daemons to say, a vindicator, you have devised a new technology that prevents your Vehicle from being shaken.

For example: Fire, Sticks, and Turpentine all exist naturally. However, by adding them together, you create a torch, which is technology.

Good call with Fabius btw

[Melissia]

By that definition then the Imperium is STILL more innovative. The CSMs haven't actually done all that much in ten thousand years, whereas the Imperium has designed whole new suits of power armor (the armor the Sisters wear, while providing similar protection, is obviously quite different than that of the Astartes; and that's to say nothing about the armor of Inquisitors or even private collectors such as nobility and bounty hunters), countless different types of weapons, new vehicles, and vehicle variants.

[FaultyVoodoo]

I agree with that, I was just saying that daemonic possession is technological advancement

[Melissia]

That's like saying tying a guard dog's leash to a pole and saying he's a limited range biological defense turret is technological advancement.

[Nabterayl]

Well, uh, yeah, it is. First time somebody figured out how to defend an area by gaining a dog's loyalty and staking him to the ground? That's definitely a technological advancement. The fact that an organic (psychic) (sentient) being is involved is irrelevant as long as there's an inanimate interface component.

EDIT: Okay, wait, we need to make something clear here. Are we thinking of a defiler as a machine that is directed by a daemon? Or as a machine that a daemon is forced to possess? That could affect the debate, depending on how you think runes work.

EDIT 2: Also, do we agree that wraithguard are technological? Or is that also disputed?