In Assault without BTB contact

[DarkLink]

I'm not sure that's true. If we know that they aren't in base contact, on what basis would we call them locked? And if they aren't locked (which I think it's pretty clear they aren't), then how can they be engaged since, as you say, you must be locked to be engaged? And if they aren't engaged, in what sense are they not disengaged?

Well, I think that's the correct answer, that they disengage and aren't in combat anymore, as they aren't locking in combat.



But, yeah, I'm interested to know how this issue came up multiple time.

[Tynskel]

I'm really not sure I agree with this. I'm not sure why we need to check for lock only at the start of the turn. If you check for lock at the start of every phase the answer falls out of the rules pretty neatly, doesn't it?

you could do that--- Oh, and I now have my book in front of me.

The only thing that I can point to is this: The rules are set-up in a step-wise fashion---
pick a unit, move the unit.
Pick a unit, shoot the unit.
Pick a unit, assault the unit.

So, let's say you we fall into this scenario. You pick a unit-- it is locked in combat, it cannot move. Shooting Phase: Now, you use the 'vindicare' to shoot the 1 guy in B2B. He dies. Now you pick the unit and it can now shoot. No longer locked. However, this does not work the other way around--- if you tried to fire the unit first, found out it was locked, then use the Vindicare-- you couldn't go back-- you had already 'picked the unit'.


Conclusion, if you follow the step-wise format, and when you come to the unit and it is no longer 'locked' then you can do what you are trying to do.

[Nabterayl]

you could do that--- Oh, and I now have my book in front of me.

The only thing that I can point to is this: The rules are set-up in a step-wise fashion---
pick a unit, move the unit.
Pick a unit, shoot the unit.
Pick a unit, assault the unit.

So, let's say you we fall into this scenario. You pick a unit-- it is locked in combat, it cannot move. Shooting Phase: Now, you use the 'vindicare' to shoot the 1 guy in B2B. He dies. Now you pick the unit and it can now shoot. No longer locked. However, this does not work the other way around--- if you tried to fire the unit first, found out it was locked, then use the Vindicare-- you couldn't go back-- you had already 'picked the unit'.


Conclusion, if you follow the step-wise format, and when you come to the unit and it is no longer 'locked' then you can do what you are trying to do.

That is precisely the view I take.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, and I think it's pretty clearly supported by the quote Nab and I both posted. You check to see if the models are locked, and if they are then you check to see who's engaged and thus who can attack. In this case, they're clearly not locked, and so it sounds like the combat ends.

[Lerra]

But, yeah, I'm interested to know how this issue came up multiple times.

It actually came up twice in one night. In one game, the results of the rules debate decided the outcome of the game because the combat took place about 5" away from an unclaimed objective.

In the first game, one of my daemonhost models was stuck in combat. The next turn, he rolled for his random psychic power, and got the power that creates a S3 AP2 large blast template centered over the daemonhost (this power works even while the model is engaged in CC). After some lucky rolls, I killed most of the opposing squad, and my opponent chose to remove all the models in BTB with the daemonhost in order to save his special weapons that were in the second ring.

In the second game, I was facing a very shooty space marine list with lots of heavy bolters and anti-infantry guns. I had 3 rhinos, each full of 10 marines, trying to destroy a nearby Land Raider. Each squad is equipped with a meltagun and a combi-melta, so I drove the rhinos right up to 1" away from the Land Raider and parked the rhinos perpendicular to the LRC, leaving about 2.5" between the rhinos (it resembled the shape of the letter E). All three squads disembarked from their rhinos with the meltas in range of the LRC. This way, all the marines are out of LoS from my opponent's anti-infantry shooting because they are hiding behind the rhinos, and all three squads are in assault range if I am able to explode the LRC.

I managed to immobilize the LRC. The next turn, 5 terminators combi-assaulted the whole mess of marines. One terminator assaulted a rhino, one more terminator assaulted Squad #1, one terminator assaulted a different rhino, one terminator assaulted Squad #2, and one terminator assaulted squad #3. After pile-in, I couldn't get more than 2 marines in BTB because I was trapped between the rhinos and the LRC, and terminator bases are pretty large, so my opponent wasn't able to get a second terminator in BTB.

Also, my opponent had a Vindicare Assassin and two Rune Priests with Jaws of the World Wolf. Between the two of us, we had a lot of shooting that could remove models locked in combat (3 Daemonhosts, 1 Vindicare Assassin, and 3 Rune Priests all with Jaws). I wouldn't be surprised to see this particular rules dilemma pop up fairly often, especially with if the daemonhosts.