forgeworld IA rules/lists

[Old_Paladin]

The VDR flyer rules are not the same as the Apoc flyer rules, they are very different, and the VDR is a relic from ten+ years ago and from two editions past that most people haven never even known existed and wasn't on anything near the support that FW/Apoc stuff has.

That's a lot of assumptions from just your personal views. (and they are a relic of only 6 years ago by the way).
Enough people either have or know about the VDR rules, that they are legal for the Astromoni-con (the largest tournaments in Canada).

It's also good to know how you feel about Dark Eldar, Witchhunter, Daemonhunter and Necron players. How about we just tell them that they aren't allowed to play anymore; because their codexes are relics from almost a decade, and two editions, ago and don't have any Forgeworld or GW support!


The fact is that you can use different rules from different supplements; usually to be used within the game set is was meant for.
In Apoc, you should use the Apoc Flyers.
For normal games you can use the flyer rules that are made with that type of game in mind.
In planetstrike, you should be using the planetstrike deep strike rules; which are different then the rules of other play styles.
In cities of death, template weapon work differently then in other games.

The list of general rules that are applied different depending on the type of game being played is huge; there is nothing that forces you to use the same rule (from a different supplement) for every type of game.

[Atrotos]

What Old Paladin and Vaktathi are discussing is slightly beside the point. As Vaktathi mentioned players are always going to use the rules that suit them best and this goes for codex entries as well. Forgeworld might produce some very competitive units but I'd take a Jetseer Council, Venetta or Vulkan over any of them any day.

If the original question is simply whether or not the FW supplements are suitable for regular games the answer is they are exactly as suitable as anything called a codex. They undergo the same amount of playtesting under the same methods (I had a conversation with the guys at FW over the phone to confirm this).

FW's added transparency makes feedback much more accessible to them hence they released their FAQ's just a couple of weeks after releasing their armylists. They are much more willing to undergo several iterations in the pursuit of balance as noted by changes made over time to the original Imperial Armour Update which altered points costs and special rules. So in a sense they more dedicated to balance than GW is though granted their rules design is far inferior.

40k players tend to have crazy ideas about the value of "official." FW has given ample support to the Inquisition and the Tau both of which desperately need it. Denying players these extra options because they're not official is silly given what I said above about the level of testing that goes into both sources.

[Old_Paladin]

40k players tend to have crazy ideas about the value of "official." Denying players these extra options because they're not official is silly given what I said above about the level of testing that goes into both sources.

I have gotten a little off track; but, my point isn't that they aren't "official", it's just that you cannot expect to be able to walk up to everyone and think that you can just play your forgeworld list, or add forgeworld rules to your army and act like you just brought a normal GW codex.

You said that a vulkan list is more competitive then anything forgeworld does? Well, add in those forgeworld multi-melta razorbacks (a free up-grade) and that competitive list just got even better, for free.
Edit: Looks like the latest update to the IA:2 list made it a twin-linked multi-melta for free anyways; so you don't even need Vulkan, for free twin-linked melta razorbacks.
That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points.


These things are fine, if your opponent doesn't mind, or can do it in return; but you shouldn't assume that every feels that forgeworld is the same as a GW codex.

[Atrotos]

You said that a vulkan list is more competitive then anything forgeworld does? Well, add in those forgeworld multi-melta razorbacks (a free up-grade) and that competitive list just got even better, for free.
Edit: Looks like the latest update to the IA:2 list made it a twin-linked multi-melta for free anyways; so you don't even need Vulkan, for free twin-linked melta razorbacks.
That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points.

A solid point. The only counter I can offer here is that Multi-melta Razorback and Autocannon Chimeras just make sense to me as a player that knows his way around the fluff. If Lascannons were suddenly introduced to the game right now I'm sure people would have the same reaction. The two examples you've given above might change the game considerably but they're (in my eyes and many others') the natural progression given the options that already exist. I hope this makes sense. It's Forgeworld plugging in the gaps in the codex.

You might then counter by saying "the options make sense, but they're undercosted!" To which I would reply that at least with FW you can expect changes to the rules based on feedback - not so with GW's blunders (Lash for example). So the way to solve the issue is by using the rules and understanding them and their effect on the game. If this is too great get yourself and all your friends on the phone and tell FW they messed up.

These things are fine, if your opponent doesn't mind, or can do it in return; but you shouldn't assume that every feels that forgeworld is the same as a GW codex.

It's a vicious cycle. If you treat it like it's somehow different to the mainstream codecies then it will continue to be different and you will need your opponent's permission. However, if you treat it like it's nothing special it becomes the norm. The moment people start using it without reservations the sooner it gets accepted in tournaments (because people have come to consider it part of the game) the sooner it becomes strange not to use it when you can.

I don't just use forgeworld material I tell every beleaguered Tau or Inquisition or Ork player I can find to look up the rules because there's more out there than just waiting out the decade it takes for your codex to be renewed.

[Vaktathi]

That's a lot of assumptions from just your personal views. (and they are a relic of only 6 years ago by the way).
Enough people either have or know about the VDR rules, that they are legal for the Astromoni-con (the largest tournaments in Canada).

I have no idea what the canada gaming scene is like, Canada does not set standards for gaming as a whole anymore than anywhere else does. When were the VDR rules made available? I was almost positive it was early 3E, certainly not 6 years ago when 4E came out. I also have no idea where you'd get them from any sort of GW related resource now (so basically rapidshare/google/fansites/etc). They certainly aren't available in an army or rules book or available to download from GW. Also, IIRC,Jervis very specifically flat out stated that the VDR requires opponents consent within the VDR rules themselves.

It's also good to know how you feel about Dark Eldar, Witchhunter, Daemonhunter and Necron players. How about we just tell them that they aren't allowed to play anymore; because their codexes are relics from almost a decade, and two editions, ago and don't have any Forgeworld or GW support!

They're still available for purchase and feature in GW publications. The VDR rules are not.

That said, apparently you haven't read my earlier posts, equating this exact state of such older books with FW stuff, especially DE since they are available online only, not even in stores, why should FW stuff be any different?

In Apoc, you should use the Apoc Flyers.
For normal games you can use the flyer rules that are made with that type of game in mind.

The Apoc rules superceded previous rules. You can still use them for normal games, but require the Apocalypse rules. A DKoK siege regiment for instance however requires nothing but the army list and the BRB.

That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points.

I think you'll find most IG players would not. This particular thing seems to cause hysteria every time it's brought up. The Multilaser is *as good or better* against anything with a T value that isn't 8 or 10, or anything that has a 2+/3+/5+/6+sv or is in cover, and is better at killing AV10 vehicles, as good at damaging AV11 (only slightly worse at destroying), and it's only when you get to AV12 and 13 vehicles that the Autocannon becomes better. So basically, you reduce performance against the vast majority of targets to be a little better at popping a smaller range of units with a little extra range, and increase the units cost by almost 10%. IG already have more than enough access to autocannons, I think you'd find that AC's wouldn't be as popular as is supposed.

I have gotten a little off track; but, my point isn't that they aren't "official", it's just that you cannot expect to be able to walk up to everyone and think that you can just play your forgeworld list, or add forgeworld rules to your army and act like you just brought a normal GW codex.

What is "official"? There is no stated GW list of "official" or "standard" units/books/models aside from what has a GW copyright and/or trademark. Codex+BRB is a *convention*, but not a codified or standardized rule.

[scadugenga]

@Old Paladin:

While I agree with many of your points--you're not going to get Vatkathi to change his mind. He has been unwilling to even consider a viewpoint not of his making. You're approaching the endless loop portion of this ride.

Unless, of course, you like the exercise of tilting at windmills--if so, by all means, keep going!

[Old_Paladin]

When were the VDR rules made available? I was almost positive it was early 3E, certainly not 6 years ago when 4E came out.

Chapter Approved 2004; which had the second run updates, changes and expantions to the rules.

[Renegade]

My point was that if you are using FW lists, you should not be mixing in codex other than where FW say to in the IA. Spearhead is an official update, just as much as the new eldar vehicle is.

I don't really know anything about the US or Canada scene, but IA has been available in GW stores for quite some time. Why play if your only going to do so against half of what GW produces? FW stuff looks far better than normal plastics as well.

As for tournaments, some in the UK allow FW or impose a limit on how much FW can be used, but few ban it completely.

Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up with the UK game, as this is where it is made.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

My point was that if you are using FW lists, you should not be mixing in codex other than where FW say to in the IA. Spearhead is an official update, just as much as the new eldar vehicle is.

I don't really know anything about the US or Canada scene, but IA has been available in GW stores for quite some time. Why play if your only going to do so against half of what GW produces? FW stuff looks far better than normal plastics as well.

As for tournaments, some in the UK allow FW or impose a limit on how much FW can be used, but few ban it completely.

Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up with the UK game, as this is where it is made.

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out.

Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.

If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucks to find, and are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.

[scadugenga]

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out.

Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.

If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucks to find, and are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.

This gets +1 just for using jingoistic...correctly.