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  1. #1
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    Default the decline of 40k

    hello
    // WARNING big massive rant// this is bias and does go off topic to gk new dex hate -_-




    sadly its true.
    ( but first a little about me)
    i started playing 40k in 4rth ed. Through my eager eyes everything appeared new, different, new and exciting. all my eldars had rules and stats that were different to my friends tryanids, necrons and tau. then i started playing grey knights and blood angels. it was great. although it was just 2 power armored armies the blood angels (PDF dex) were fast and brutal and even though the lack of units each unit did its own cool thing. grey knights were fun to play with, always 2 S6 attacks per model and terminators that could mince the tyrnid heavies in minuets.

    Now when Codex: space marines was released everyone loved it, some things ( xavier and chapter tactics/doctrines and nid vets) slipped quietly away also this was the first major start of swapping units around ( captain on bike, pedro) . then was Codex Imperial guard: more charecturful units (penal legion) vanished. .afterwards was the Space wolves: missing some charecturful units (wolfen) they were a good codex ruined by 1 or two things. Nids were just left feeling deflated, and underpowered. and after that was the blood angels: loaded with FOC shenanigans and 'hyper powered' characters. then came the Dark eldar: A bright spark, good quality models, fun rules and new sculpts. Then Grey knights. FOC shenanigans and blandness: iconic units missing, units renamed and a fun way of army mixing ( allies) gone.

    Now what is the main problems that pop up

    1) blandness. S4 now instead of the marines big strength is now apparently standard, whether it is the guards silly marbo's or grey knights power blades, s4 is now being handed out, where it used to be marines only.
    FNP is everywhere and now most named FOC choices allow you to take one unit or another as a troops unit. this is bad for balance and 40k in general. if you want to play crowe leading the entire brotherhood of paladins on malan'ti that is fine. but having crowe as a paladin tax to have 1 or two paladins aided by JOKEaroos is silly. but look at his rules he is sadly underpowered due to the fact he makes paladins troops .
    grey knights are possibly the worst example of genericification. S6 is now S4, IST's are gone, Daemonhosts are bland where they once used to be fun and the inclusion of ordos herticus and xenos is bizarre.

    2) models.
    dark eldar, space wolves and blood angels all did their models well. marines were ruined by some things (thunderfire!) but all the models were good.

    but with new dynamic posing the grey knights terminators look good from a distance but, massive deformations on the legs and some other warpage comes simply for the pose, space hulk had a similar problem,and frankly id like static models rather than horribly bad CAD problems

    3) lack of new useful content in WD and coedexes ( or even online)
    IN wd there used to be army galleries, USEFUL tactics interesting battle reports and eavy metal tutorials, and even further back new rules. event coverage is at nil and the old painting and conversion guides that used to be in codex's is GONE.


    4) removal of charecturful models
    lets see
    MARCHIUS (greatest imperial commander since the heresy), Penal legions, marine doctrines, tyrannic veterans (what made ultramarines less cookie cutter) , wulfen, 13th company, Teleport attack squads, Grey knight terminators HOLOCAUSt, Grey knights heroes, INQUISITORIAL Storm troopers, Familiars, orbital strikes, shall i continue?

    5) rewritten fluff.
    so when in the grey knight fluff (and books) the terminators use holocaust .. well umm.
    most of the blood angels characters background. stern. every time inquristorial stromtroopers are mentioned in the fluff what happens? hey what about armageddon? 3 or 4 5th ed dexes have diffrent versions of it.

    the problem:

    GW is now a business. 40k is no longer GW's little fun project, with players who love to play it and are listened to by the company.

    PP is not like this however in 10 years they will be the same


    writing faq'S takes time , time = money so dont make interesting codex's that need FAq's just make them so bland they dont need FAQ'd .
    Models? yeah do them in CAD and make them super pretty from 1 angle only! (try and find a rear shot of the GKT's on GW website)
    Consumers? after 10+ years they dont buy as much as new blood that will buy a army instantly.
    Clever businessmen who can make profit and not line their pockets whilst listening to the consumer.... no thanks well take kirby.D:< (there was a article on [url]http://theback40k.blogspot.com/[/url] tat showed kirby as the ((%(%&)(*&%(*)^&$ that he really is.)
    hey lets take 25 mins to publish useful content in codex's and online... .NAAH lets just publish bulldung
    grey knights allies.. pff make cheesy and unfluffy armies ( insert great sarcasm herE)



    really i try to like GW but honestly it really gets hard sometimes... .i need to check with local GW people that i can still use codex DH

    -fuzz

    p.s. if anyone from GW read this not there are MANY people whom would like to have a say in what happens, play-test and submit articles for WD: sometimes astro-mag is better than your 'flagship magazine'
    p.p.s make crons T5S5 with more focus about killing the lord, and eldar BS/WS5 to have less dreaded 4's
    p.p.p.s does fantasy get the same bland ruels/statline treatment?
    p.p.p.p.s we need to keep these unruly warseer folk out
    Last edited by fuzzbuket; 05-04-2011 at 10:16 AM. Reason: spellcheck
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  2. #2
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    I think the only thing I can agree with you is that WD sucks and that GW releases FAQs too slowly. Not that they're really obligated to do so as long as we keep paying, but it's annoying anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    grey knights were fun to play with, always 2 S6 attacks per model and terminators that could mince the tyrnid heavies in minuets.
    Grey Knights still mince tyrnid heavies in minuets (whatever minuets means, anyways). Now instead of causing a half dozen wounds, you cause 1-2 and force weapon everything. Or hit it with rad grenades and go back to causing a half dozen wounds. And, of course, you're way better at every other aspect of the game now, so killing 'nidz before they assault is even easier than it was before.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    Now when Codex: space marines was released everyone loved it, some things ( xavier and chapter tactics/doctrines and nid vets) slipped quietly away also this was the first major start of swapping units around ( captain on bike, pedro) . then was Codex Imperial guard: more charecturful units (penal legion) vanished. .afterwards was the Space wolves: missing some charecturful units (wolfen) they were a good codex ruined by 1 or two things. Nids were jsut left feeling deflated, and underpowered. and after that was the blood angels: loaded with FOC shenanigans and 'hyper powered' characters.
    Wait, you mean they replaced crappy old rules with better new rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    Then Grey knights. FOC shenanigans and blandness: iconic units missing, units renamed and a fun way of army mixing ( allies) gone.
    Allies was broken and stupid anyways (see how I can turn your opinion that FOC swaps are stupid and turn it around?).

    And what do you mean by 'iconic units missing'? The GK codex went from having literally 3 HQs and 4-5 units that were actually halfway decent to having 10+ HQs and 10+ solid unit choices.

    And if you're whining about the Inquisition stuff, they never really belonged in 40k anyways. Go play Dark Heresy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    1) blandness. S4 now instead of the marines big strength is now apparently standard, whether it is the guards silly marbo's or grey knights power blades, s4 is now being handed out, where it used to be marines only.
    So one guard character and -gasp- Marines are str 4?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    FNP is everywhere
    If by everywhere you mean in 1-2 units per codex, or in the case of DE on most units but you need to earn the upgrade in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    and now most named FOC choices allow you to take one unit or another as a troops untit. this is bad for balance and 40k in general.
    How is it bad for balance? I'm pretty sure it's actually awesome for balance, because the variety of options it opens up means there is more variety in the type of available lists, which means that each codex has more and more options, which means that you're not forced to take 'that one single good list' that applied to every 3rd/4th ed codex but not to the 5th ed ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    if you want to play crowe leading the entire brotherhood of paladins on malan'ti that is fine. but having crowe as a paladin tax to have 1 or two paladins aided by JOKEaroos is silly. but look at his rules he is sadly underpowered due to the fact he makes paladisn troops
    Ummm... Driago makes Paladins troops. And Crowe makes Purifiers troops. Both of which are interesting and viable options for armylists, which, once again, is a good thing. More viable options=good. Less viable options = bad. Ergo, 5th ed codices = good, 3rd/4th ed codices=not so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    grey knigts are possibly the worst example of genericification. S6 is now S4, IST's are gone, Daemonhosts are bland where they once used to be fun and the inclusion of ordos herticus and xenos is bizzare.
    Str 6 is now FORCE WEAPONs, with 5 different options for various effecs that any unit can take with little restriction other than points. You want I6 GKs? Go ahead. Thunderhammers for everyone? Sure. Tons of attacks, better invulnerable saves, ridiculously good invulnerable save? Just spend the points.

    And are you still complaining about the Inquisition stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    2) models.
    dark eldar, space wolves and blood angels all did thier models well. marines were ruined by some things (thunderfire!) but all the models were good.

    but with new dynamic posing the grey knights terminators look good from a distance but, massive deformations on the legs and some other warpage comes simply for the pose, space hulk had a similar problem,and frankly id like static models rather than horribly bad CAD problems
    You think Space Marines look stupid because you don't like the thunderfire cannon? I'd hate to hear what you think about GKs because of the Dreadknight.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    3) lack of new useful content in WD and coedexes ( or even online)
    IN wd there used to be army galleries, USEFUL tactics intresting battle reports and eavy metal tutorials, and even further back new ruels. event coverage is at nil and the old painting and conversion guides that used to be in codex's is GONE.
    Yeah, this sucks. Hopefully they do more stuff like the Warp Hunter.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    4) removal of charecturful models
    lets see
    MARCHIUS (greatest imperial commander since the hersy), Penal legions, marine doctrines, trannic veterans (what made ultramarines less cookie cutter) , wulfen, 13th company, Teleport attack squads, Grey knight terminators HOLOCAUSt, Grey knights heroes, INQUISITORIAL Storm troopers, Familiars, orbital strikes, shall i continue?
    Penal Legions are still in the codex. Chapter Tactics is a far more balanced system than the old Marine doctrines, for effectively the same effect. Sternguard are 'nid veterans. Wulfen are now available in pretty much every units in the SW codex, and with an ounce of creativity it's easy to make the 13th company. GKs not only still have teleport attack squads, but those squads are infinitely better. Same with Terminators, despite the partial loss of one (crappy) psychic power. Which Paladins still have.

    Grey Knight Heroes are now significantly better in every conceivable way. Warrior Acolytes are also much better than ISTs, and the new henchmen squads are far better than the old rules. Orbital strikes used to suck, and now they... ok, they still kinda suck, but they suck less now. Shall I continue?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    5) rewitten fluff.
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    GW is now a buisness. 40k is no longer GW's little fun project, with players who love to play it and are listend to by the company.
    This is news to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    Consumers? arfter 10+ years they dont buy as much as new blood that will buy a army instantly.
    Any numbers to back this up?

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    Clever buisnessmen who can make profit and not line thier pockets whilst listening to the consumer
    Ok, there are so many things wrong with this statement that I don't even... screw it.

    Businesses do not 'steal' peoples money, as you seem to think. Businesses drive the economy. If there were no 'clever buisnessmen' (it's spelled business, btw), we would all still be hunterers and gatherers wearing animal skins and clubbing each other on the head with... well, clubs.

    Because GW offers you goods, and you agree to pay for said goods, GW can employ a certain number of people. These people can then go and buy food and goods for their families, and spend money in other places that circulate the money which indirectly comes back around to pay you for whatever job you work at.

    So unless GW is sending people to mug you in a back ally, you really don't have any room to complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzbuket View Post
    i need to check with local GW people that i can still ues codex DH
    Even if you did think you could use it, why would you want to? The loss of fearless is mildly annoying, but the new codex is far, far better in virtually every possible way.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  3. #3
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    Dude, I started with Rogue Trader, loved 2nd Ed... then along came 3rd - there's a decline worth writing about

    Take the loss of models/characters/gear, blandness and changes to the background now and times it by 1000.
    The issues you mentioned with the models is a problem to do with plastics, no matter who makes them, and there's nothing that can be done about the occasional modeling oddity. Beats having a dozen dudes all in the same pose.

    And now I'm buying more gear than I ever have.

  4. #4

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    I totally have to say you seem to be in decline because of a perceived issue or something the business is Great more players than ever and I have to say they have increased new codex's 2fold I was playing in 3rd and if they released 2 codex's a year that was average in 2002 and 2003. No we get 4 or 5 in a 12 month period and MUCH better models.

    I have to say that I think you have it wrong and PP has SERIOUS Supply issues and they are doing all that GW is accused 150pt games 80 dollar models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the detail.

    It is GW's Fluff so they can rewrite and you have only been in the game since 4th so hard to see a deep historical perspective. No offense. That Idea that 10+ years and you spend less is an Old GW powerpoint slide they use to say that 1st year consumer spend x dollars and 2nd year drops off by 10% and so on losing 10% a year and when I asked them about the numbers, like where did they come from they admitted they made it up

    Yes White Dwarf is not as good but they still pimp the LOTR and that hurts and I miss the Chapter Approved. They need MUCH better Public relations.

    Seems to e a generational issue with Business like business is EVIL and steals form people because Tylenol is evil and so is SC Johnson and all their cleaning products and heaven forbid is a guy makes a new thing that helps people and makes a buck along they way GOOD for him
    Last edited by TheBitzBarn; 05-03-2011 at 02:48 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBitzBarn View Post
    I totally have to say you seem to be in decline because of a perceived issue or something the business is Great more players than ever and I have to say they have increased new codex's 2fold I was playing in 3rd and if they released 2 codex's a year that was average in 2002 and 2003. No we get 4 or 5 in a 12 month period and MUCH better models.

    I have to say that I think you have it wrong and PP has SERIOUS Supply issues and they are doing all that GW is accused 150pt games 80 dollar models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the detail
    Touche. I think I have to sacrafice my first born to get a Gatorman Posse.

  6. #6
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    Addmitedley I've only been playing since 4th edition so I don't have as wide a view on how much the hobby has been changed but the changes that have happened so far I find quite good. Maybe there have been a few muck ups on fluff and rules in the past, but thats to be expected- after all if the rules and fluff were made perfect there wouldnt be any need for new editions of the rules. All I can say is, change happens- adapt or change hobbies
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  7. #7
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    @ darklink
    i prefered the old GK dex ( old true grit, old holocaust, old models, old IST's), and this might have turned into a rant about that that covered the original intent, that GW has seemed to be making 40k more bland, kirby isnt too good [url]http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com/2011/04/styleheight-390px-width-640px-namemovie.html[/url]
    and 40k is steadily declineing,and that probably is due to a lot of the staff leaving ( aka ward has done 3/7 of the 5th ed dex's) and lack of support. ( i still remember the old GW site, and GW's astronomican hasnt been updated since march)

    oh about the T/F cannon it is that it was a pain to build it is a fantastic model but impossible to stick together.

    and having other units unlock units as troops, it reverts to the old problem. i read somewhere that when making 5th ed GW made troops scoring because people used to have thier troops choices as the bare minimus, splurgeing on the elite/heavy choices that could score (in 4rth ed) . sadly if most units become troops with a HQ tax, well that defeats the point of that mechnic. sometimes it is good, but for most of the stuff its true place is in narrative battles.

    and thankyou: Gotthammer TheBitzBarn wittdooley and Cyberscape7 for your input , the OP will now have a 'warning rant ahead' attached :P
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  8. #8
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    That's an awesome hitler montage, even if the jokes old by now.


    The problem with min-maxing is more that troops units sucked. Why ever take more than the minimum tactical Marines when you could have all sorts of awesome units instead. Now, because scoring is restricted to certain models, inferior units with scoring suddenly are worth taking. But more importantly, now the new codices are balanced such that the available troop choices (including those availabe via special characters) are actually good enough to take, so that you're not stuck with a minimum of 2 crappy units and then the rest of your army.


    And I love the new GKs. Losing Fearless is mildly annoying, but we're just trading having bad leadership in CC but good in shooting for bad at shooting and good in CC. But literally everything about the GKs is better in every way, losing str 6 and such or not. Sure, GKSS are worse in CC now. But overall the army is far, far, far more competitive. The unit choices are far better, and you're not stuck into one or two builds if you want to have a chance of winning.

    And, hey, Inquisitors are actually good. They used to suck, now there are a half dozen different viable ways of taking them. So what if you have to take Coteaz if you want a pure I army?
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  9. #9
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    The issue is you started in 4th. So did I so I know what the problem is.

    This is the first time you're seeing Codexes turn around. In fact armies that you have been playing for however long are suddenly getting updates and you dont like the change, but the game has been changing since the start and you are only just now noticing because you havent been around long enough to notice it before. Trust me, I hate the GK codex too, I feel like they used to be unique and special and are now little more than another SM chapter (which they arent supposed to be in fluff) with a bunch of ridiculous rules with no basis, but I accept it because its all a part of the game. Things change as time goes on, Veterans have been dealing with this forever. Its why you dont see them *****ing, change is nothing new.

    And dude, you are far too new to the hobby to get teary eyed about how GW 'used to be'. You dont know. Not saying I do either, but you damn well dont.

  10. #10

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    For my 2 cents I am GLAD AS hell Kirby took over North America. The old guy sucked and he has Streamlined the operation and all things here are better IMOA

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