Specialist Games maybe not entirely dead

[YorkNecromancer]

I see this more as a sign that they're protecting their IPs, to prevent other companies making 40K/Fantasy models 'on the sly' so to speak. It also makes it easier if they want to convert these older games to digital/ipad/console games, which seems to be a thing they do now.

I doubt very much we'll see any return of the Specialist Games, because, ultimately, where's the money? Given the choice between a new Necromunda gang sprue of 10 guys which a handful of hardcore gamers will play, or a new Space Marine squad which will sell far more copies, I know which I would put into production. Specialist Games are a lovely idea, and I imagine they make good money for the small companies which make similar products (Malifaux, et al.) but GW just won't do it, because every SG kit is a lost 40K or Fantasy kit.

Especially when, yes, Space Hulk sold, but Dreadfleet?

Yeah, all twenty people who play it LOVE it, but come on. You can't make money that way.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I agree with YorkNecromancer. Since they seem to be throwing around the video game licenses a lot lately, it's far more likely they'll have some 3rd party video-game based on them if anything at all. As much as I'd love to see a new edition of Epic or BFG it's pretty unlikely, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.

[Mr Mystery]

Dreadfleet suffered from two things Space Hulk doesn't....

1) No cross compatibility for the models
2) No pedigree as an old favourite.

Yet it remains one of my favourite games.

The other specialist games, released at one year, with a 'gone is gone' supply chain - that can make money.

Consider it - Mordheim etc all have rules and existing model ranges. Only cost involved is the tail end production - printing, casting, boxing and shipping. That's pretty cheap as costs go, certainly to my understanding bypassing the main costs.

Pick the right games (BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl spring to mind), and they will self generate enough hype and demand to swallow up whatever has been produced. Price point is then largely moot. BFG as an example - I bought an Imperial Grand Cruiser during the wind down. Cost me around £20 tops. Never got round to building it, so sold it on ebay earlier this year - for £70. That suggests a good level of demand, and although a rarer model in the range, more prevalent ones still sell for relatively silly money.

GW then release those ships, even at 20% over their last price? They will sell, and sell handsomely.

That's where your cash monies are!

[miteyheroes]

Space Hulk worked brilliantly because people use the models for 40k. GorkaMorka, Mordheim, and maybe Necromunda could hit the same niche. Throw in some cool models and some fancy terrain? It'd sell like hotcakes.

[40kGamer]

I think the key to blowing out one shot Specialist games is tying them into the old systems or making the models multipurpose. Space Hulk is such an easy 40k crossover product that it's a no brainer. IMO Dreadfleet being an entirely different scale from ManOWar with no tie in to any current system hurt it's sales. It's still a nice little game but it is a true stand alone.

A new issue of Adeptus Titanicus with Imperial/chaos titans that match the old Epic Scale would have a decent shot of selling well. Sadly I really don't see them tapping into any of the old IP as they have evolved from a hobby based company to a corporate culture.

[Tyrendian]

While I would certainly hope they reboot some of the old favs, I'll believe it when I see it... and considering the really poopy quality of most games with their IPs released lately (I mean what was the last decent one? Space Marine? DoW2? BloodBowl? don't remember the dates, but beyond those I didn't see anything worthwhile...), I won't get my hopes up too much on that front either until Total WarHammer gets confirmed... or maybe someone will give BFG a shot, turn based or real-time? that might actually be rather neat...

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the key to blowing out one shot Specialist games is tying them into the old systems or making the models multipurpose.

I reckon though, that you've got to bear GW's 'We make luxury goods for collectors' business policy in mind. A multipurpose system done incorrectly would undercut 40K. Say, for example, there was a 40K version of 'Deadzone'. Now, a sensible business would say 'This is the gateway system to 40K. You only need a handful of models to play, so it's cheap and cheerful for beginners.'

GW says NO.

Because they don't sell cheap and cheerful; we know from prior experience that this is true. They actively destroy unsold stock, rather than selling it off cheap, thus keeping the 'luxury good' idea fixed in their consumers' minds.

I'm not saying it works. I'm saying that's what they do and why they do it.

So they'd never want an game that players could get cheap. And the problem with a 'Deadzone', where multiple playes could fight out a 'mini-40K' with say seven figures each, is that most of those players only buy the seven initial figures. Yes, some go on to develop 40K armies, but that's not the point. They don't see what they have to gain, only what they have to lose, and what they have to lose is 40K gamers - gamers who only bought a handful to play this mini-40K game, rather than the small army they currently have to buy to get in 40K proper.

Now, the way I can see GW doing it, is by releasing something prestigious, something Limited Edition, where they can charge upwards of £100 for a box with about fifty 'prestige' models, very much like Space Hulk, or Dark Vengeance. The problem is, apart from Space Hulk every SG has a full line of different factions. They got round that with Dreadfleet by making each faction a single ship. How can they repeat that with Necromunda? With Blood Bowl?

More importantly, how can they do that while releasing every miniature for every name faction ALL AT ONCE. Because that's their current policy in 40K codexes, remember: no rules without models.

Now, there would be ways around this; creative, clever ones. Say they re-released Blood Bowl every year. Each year would have the same core rules, but different models and 'team cards' for the two teams included. 2014 would be humans/orcs. 2015 would be high elves/skaven. 2016 would be chaos/undeed. And so on. Each time, a Limited Edition with different models, and no rules for anything besides what you got in the box.

Would it sell? OF COURSE IT ****ING WOULD. I WOULD BUY EVERY ****ING ONE ON THE DAY OF RELEASE!!!

Will they do it?

No.

Because GW is inherently backward-looking, inherently scared, and they would rather gouge an existing fanbase than take the risk of building a new one and failing. Of course, this is the third year where my school's Games Club has seen a decrease in members, as well as an increase in people who want to play but whose parents refuse to pay GW's stupid prices (because £30 for a new codex? That's ****ing insulting.) I've openly had parents tell me the hobby looks great, but they won't pay. Our library doesn't have the budget for GW rulebooks any more; five years ago, we had the complete set.

TL;DR: It'd be lovely if SG came back, and it could be done. But it would require innovative business practises, which are GW's Kyrptonite.

[Herzlos]

So they'd never want an game that players could get cheap. And the problem with a 'Deadzone', where multiple playes could fight out a 'mini-40K' with say seven figures each, is that most of those players only buy the seven initial figures. Yes, some go on to develop 40K armies, but that's not the point. They don't see what they have to gain, only what they have to lose, and what they have to lose is 40K gamers - gamers who only bought a handful to play this mini-40K game, rather than the small army they currently have to buy to get in 40K proper.

I don't buy that theory at all; I don't know anyone playing a current skirmish game that only has one force. I play 2 low model count (~5-10 minis a side) games (Malifaux & EOTD), and between them I've got more mini's than in my IG army. 2 Malifaux factions (4 masters), 3 EOTD factions and a whole host of extras. I certainly won't be dropping £500 on a new 40K army, but I don't blink at dropping £50 on a few faction in other games, and I'm by no means alone.

The cannibalized sale is a completely backwards way to be looking at it, especially when everyone else is cannibalizing their sales in the absence of GW specialst games, and once you consider the gateway approach and so on. I can see why GW follows their current approach, but it's mind bogglingly short-termist.

[YorkNecromancer]

I don't buy that theory at all; I don't know anyone playing a current skirmish game that only has one force.

Which is exaclty why it would work. But GW won't do it for the reasons I've outlined. When GW analyses a business plan, they never look at risk vs potential gain, only risk vs potential loss, hence their massively conservative business strategies and the mind-boggling short-termism you describe.

The absurd fall in their profits over the last year speaks volumes about how doomed to failure their strategies are. They could easily save themselves, but they're so scared of failure, so scared of doing something new, so abjectly terrified of any change whatsoever, that they've doomed themselves.

I don't know if they'll go out of business or not - 40K seems big enough to keep going for a few years - but a slow withering and gradual death seems all but inevitable at this stage.

[40kGamer]

I reckon though, that you've got to bear GW's 'We make luxury goods for collectors' business policy in mind. A multipurpose system done incorrectly would undercut 40K.

Because they don't sell cheap and cheerful; we know from prior experience that this is true. They actively destroy unsold stock, rather than selling it off cheap, thus keeping the 'luxury good' idea fixed in their consumers' minds.

GW used to blow things out for discounts when they discontinued or updated systems. About half of my Epic 40k stock came from an end of game liquidation. Another reminder of how much the company has changed over the last couple decades.

Would it sell? OF COURSE IT ****ING WOULD. I WOULD BUY EVERY ****ING ONE ON THE DAY OF RELEASE!!!

I’d be right there in line too!

Because GW is inherently backward-looking, inherently scared, and they would rather gouge an existing fanbase than take the risk of building a new one and failing…
TL;DR: It'd be lovely if SG came back, and it could be done. But it would require innovative business practises, which are GW's Kyrptonite.

One would think a company like GW would be very creative since they are in the business of creating things… It reminds me of when I worked at a University and was surprised to find out that they provided less of a focus on education then my old Corporate jobs. Go figure!

I firmly believe the Specialist Games are a potential gold mine. But I also agree that GW doesn’t appear to have any miners on staff at the moment. Maybe in the near future we’ll see some improvement. At the moment the company is following a path of shrinking market share while putting forth a public image of blissful ignorance.