Chaos V Loyalist, Supply V Demand, and a discussion thereof.

[Charon]

The cahllenge mechanic would be fine in my opinion. iF we had access to tools to make it worth while. If our champs had access to a half descent invul and ws then it would be fine but at the moment almost any other army in the game has champions who are likely to beat us in combat. The best we really hope for is a draw. Which still means we're dead

Also the reward system needs an overhaul... cause even IF you win the challenge you are likely ending up with useless stuff (all hail my triple hatred daemon prince... why are there so many sources you get hatred from?) or in a worse case your Khornate Lord on Juggernaut gets the ultimate reward of ascending to a fully fledged daemon prince and... ends up in a way worse spot he was before (you actually lose points and combat power).

[DrBored]

The Challenge issue is a weird one. Currently, Chaos Marines are shown as self-preserving, very willing to retreat (i.e. low LD, no ATSKNF-like rule). This is a huge contrast to "I will now duel this Eldar Avatar with my pocket-knife".

Mandatory challenges fit with "too crazy to feel fear" Chaos Marines, but are a poor fit for as they are now.

Personally, as a Chaos player, I really like the idea of mostly low-Ld Chaos Marines! It's not that they're cowards; they're just disloyal. No way in hell they'll throw their life away for Lord Bob's evil scheme to capture all the jelly beans, if they feel like they're very likely to die, they'll run for it. But by that same token, it feels odd that an Aspiring Champion is going to always fight a crazy powerful foe, rather than throw a goon at it.

The other points I agree with, but the only justification I can actually see for the Must Challenge rule is this...

If a Space Marine sarge calls out your Chaos guy, he is going to have to accept that challenge, lest he fall off the top of the totem pole to be trampled on by his own kind. So, screwed if he does, screwed if he doesn't.

Now, why that same guy is going to have to face an Avatar, I have no idea, that makes no sense whatsoever, but I can see what Phil Kelly was going for at least.

[daboarder]

Also the reward system needs an overhaul... cause even IF you win the challenge you are likely ending up with useless stuff (all hail my triple hatred daemon prince... why are there so many sources you get hatred from?) or in a worse case your Khornate Lord on Juggernaut gets the ultimate reward of ascending to a fully fledged daemon prince and... ends up in a way worse spot he was before (you actually lose points and combat power).

Yeah I'm of the opinion that the boons should be simplified to D6 stat bonuses, such as +1T, +1S, regain W/+1W,+1I, +1A,+1BS and WS Through some of the other stuff into gear (for example combo mind eater and the adimantium will into a relic etc

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I could even lean towards a d3 table. 1: +1WS/BS, 2: +1A/I, 3: +1S/T. Leave all the big mutations for player chosen upgrades, the in-battle Chaos Rewards might be better off as "I FEEL THE WARP OVERTAKING ME, IT IS A GOOD PAIN" type dealies.

[Charon]

Worst thing is you lose your toys, your mark changes and you lose all the boons you collected previously.

[Lexington]

The Challenge issue is a weird one.

Challenges themselves are a really awful mechanic that don't work at all as intended. Making them such a cornerstone of the Chaos Marine Codex's ruleset was a huge mistake.

[daboarder]

There's so many sources out there, I think it's a matter of personal player preference. It's clear that whilst Chaos do perform as raiders a fair amount of the time, with the right direction, they're capable of fighting much as the Legions of old once did. But kind of hard to make sweeping statements about how any given player's force fights most of the time.

Which to me is the great joy of the background. So much is left unsaid, or when it is said, is gloriously subjective or otherwise ambiguous. It gives us hobbyists a lot of leeway.

Me, I don't see Chaos as being a permanently cohesive threat. In my mind, they're as likely to be self defeating as defeated, as the various Warbands go for the glory (just started re-reading Storm of Iron, which helps!). For further context, this is also my favourite aspect of Skavendom in Warhammer. If they'd just stop their internal feuding, plotting and misanthropy and just get on with it, they'd long since have conquered all the Dwarf-things, Man-things and Elf-things

See now THAT I can largely agree with.

[Mr Mystery]

I am the resurrection, and I am the light.

No, not really. It's a good song though! (Stone Roses, check them out on Youtube).

I am however, a background nutter who is seriously enjoying the Crimson Slaughter Codex!

Currently up to the 13th Black Crusade bit, and I have to say, it is changing my perception of just how organised renegades can be. How about you guys?

[Lord-Boofhead]

If self preservance plays any role in the "free" CSM mindset why do they all have a deathwhish and issuing/accepting challenges from Wraithlords and Hive Tyrants?

Thats where glory and a chance to impress the Chaos Gods overrides self preservation.

Where is the point in becoming a dreaded daemon prince if this creepy thing is actually far weaker than the Chaos Lord was before?

Immortality not good enough for ya?

- - - Updated - - -

Chaos:

Can't manage: Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, LR Crusader

All post Heresy tech. None of the Dark Mechanicum know how to work it.

- - - Updated - - -

Challenges themselves are a really awful mechanic that don't work at all as intended. Making them such a cornerstone of the Chaos Marine Codex's ruleset was a huge mistake.

Nonsense they work well in wfb and they work well enough in 40K if you give them a chance.

[Charon]

Tjhe ones in the SPACE MARINE Codex are. They were built specifically to REPLACE the Kharbadys (sp?) Assault Pod.

I suggest you read the fluff your self or don't have time between hypocritical smugness?

So when Horus gave the Dreadclaw to the Worldeaters to replace their ordinary drop pods this was post heresy?