Barrage - choice to fire indirectly

[Shotgun Justice]

This seems like such an obvious question I'm sure it has been raised before now but a search of the forum didn't turn up an answer for 6th ed so my apologies if it has been covered.
Can a barrage weapon choose to fire indirectly when it has line of sight to its target?

The example that came up: a basilisk wished to fire at a unit of battle sisters, it had line of sight through a ruin that would have granted them a 4+ cover save. Could it have chosen to fire indirectly at them?

My reading of p.34, Barrage, 1st bullet point, is that a weapon with Barrage may ignore the restriction on requiring line of sight and may fire within its own minimum range but only using the indirect fire rules as laid out underneath. It does not state the the unit may chose which fire mode to use (regular or indirect)

[Nabterayl]

This seems like such an obvious question I'm sure it has been raised before now but a search of the forum didn't turn up an answer for 6th ed so my apologies if it has been covered.
Can a barrage weapon choose to fire indirectly when it has line of sight to its target?

Yes, it can. Page 34 states that barrage weapons can fire indirectly, not that they do, or even that they do under specified circumstances. It's firer's choice.

[Shotgun Justice]

The distinction between can and the lack of may was what lead to our confusion.
p.34 states that they can fire indirectly. The next sentence then clarifies what indirectly means- no los or fire within minimum range. It does not state that one can choose. Rules which have firers choice such as interceptor or skyfire on fliers state that it is a choice.
edit - or indeed multiple fire modes such as missile launchers or that new plasma-thingy-landspeeder Dark Angels have

[Magpie]

The example that came up: a basilisk wished to fire at a unit of battle sisters, it had line of sight through a ruin that would have granted them a 4+ cover save. Could it have chosen to fire indirectly at them?

Whether a barrage weapon fires indirectly or not the cover save is always determined from the centre of the template.

If you read the rule it says they are blast weapons that fire as other blast weapons do but with 3 exceptions.
1. they can fire at a target they do not have LOS to or is within minimum range
2. Cover saves and wound allocation are ALWAYS determined from the centre of the template.
3. they are pinning.

2 & 3 are not dependent on the weapon firing as it can in 1.

[henrythesecond]

Whether a barrage weapon fires indirectly or not the cover save is always determined from the centre of the template.

If you read the rule it says they are blast weapons that fire as other blast weapons do but with 3 exceptions.
1. they can fire at a target they do not have LOS to or is within minimum range
2. Cover saves and wound allocation are ALWAYS determined from the centre of the template.
3. they are pinning.

2 & 3 are not dependent on the weapon firing as it can in 1.

Ooooh, as lovely as that sounds, it feels intuitively wrong. Why would a direct-firing (though indirect-capable) weapon still determine cover saves from the centre of the template, whilst equally powerful weapons (a Vindicator, for example) confer cover from the perspective of the firer?

If I wasn't firing indirectly I'd feel damned churlish to deny my opponent his cover saves.

Cheers.

[Shotgun Justice]

Ooooh, as lovely as that sounds, it feels intuitively wrong. Why would a direct-firing (though indirect-capable) weapon still determine cover saves from the centre of the template, whilst equally powerful weapons (a Vindicator, for example) confer cover from the perspective of the firer?

If I wasn't firing indirectly I'd feel damned churlish to deny my opponent his cover saves.

Cheers.

I agree that it feels wrong and would offer the cover save to my opponent but it is exactly rules as written - got barrage on your profile? Always able to barrage snipe

[Nabterayl]

Whether a barrage weapon fires indirectly or not the cover save is always determined from the centre of the template.

If you read the rule it says they are blast weapons that fire as other blast weapons do but with 3 exceptions.
1. they can fire at a target they do not have LOS to or is within minimum range
2. Cover saves and wound allocation are ALWAYS determined from the centre of the template.
3. they are pinning.

2 & 3 are not dependent on the weapon firing as it can in 1.

That is a very good point. I also note that barrage weapons always hit the top level of a ruin (page 100), period - not only when firing indirectly.

To synthesize, then, the old ability to use an ordnance barrage weapon like an assault gun is simply gone from 6th edition. You can think of it like this: barrage weapons always lob their projectiles in an arc (you can call this firing "indirectly" if you like, although the rules do not). As Magpie correctly points out, cover saves and wound allocation are always determined from the center of the template, they always hit the top level of a ruin, and are always Pinning. If you can see the target and the target is outside of your minimum range, you get these benefits/drawbacks (whether you like it or not) and still subtract your BS from your scatter distance. If you can't see the target, or the target is inside your minimum range, you can still fire (with the aforesaid benefits and drawbacks) but you don't subtract your BS from scatter.

Upon reflection, I actually rather like this. If you think of it as barrage weapons always firing in an arc, it makes perfect sense. All it really means is that if the gunner can see the target, firing in a high lobbing arc is no less accurate than firing directly.

[JMichael]

Whether a barrage weapon fires indirectly or not the cover save is always determined from the centre of the template.

If you read the rule it says they are blast weapons that fire as other blast weapons do but with 3 exceptions.
1. they can fire at a target they do not have LOS to or is within minimum range
2. Cover saves and wound allocation are ALWAYS determined from the centre of the template.
3. they are pinning.

2 & 3 are not dependent on the weapon firing as it can in 1.

This is right.
Barrage weapons never really fire 'directly'. The Barrage rule denotes the type of trajectory the round is taking.

First sentence under Barrage on p34 'Barrage Weapons lob shells high into the air, landing them in the midst of the foe'.
No matter what, the round is still being lobbed regardless of LoS.
With Barrage you ALWAYS determine cover saves as if the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model.

Note that with I.G. the terms 'direct and indirect fire' have been removed from the codex via FAQ/Errata. Just like you can also now fire within your minimum range (albeit with no BS modifier to the scatter).


>>>ninja'd by Nabterayl!<<<

[Magpie]

Ooooh, as lovely as that sounds, it feels intuitively wrong. Why would a direct-firing (though indirect-capable) weapon still determine cover saves from the centre of the template, whilst equally powerful weapons (a Vindicator, for example) confer cover from the perspective of the firer?

If I wasn't firing indirectly I'd feel damned churlish to deny my opponent his cover saves.

Cheers.

Think of it as a mortar as opposed to a field gun.

A mortar ALWAYS fires its round on a low velocity, high trajectory so when it comes down the shell comes from above and lands behind any cover. A field gun fires on a flatter higher velocity path, through the cover.

So the round from a mortar is only going to be effected by cover that is above or in between where the round lands and you. A direct fire weapon like a field gun will have to go through the cover along the LOS of the shot.

My guess is that a barrage weapon is like a mortar but other weapon types are more akin to a field gun.

A simplification for sure but that is what 40k is all about.

Just a note on the "always hit the top of a ruin". It's what is underneath the centre hole that determines the level that is hits.

I say this as a game I played awhile ago I didn't check the book and just thought it was "if they are in a ruin you can only hit the top" where as I could have actually put the template over his guys in the ruin and the hole would have been on the ground floor.

But then again, you expect such trickery from Dark Eldar !